January 20, 2007

  • What is Church?
    Ecumenical- A Community of Diverse People

    (Part 1) (Part 2) (Part 3) (Part 4) (Part 5) This is Part 6

    Church is a community of people…a community of diverse people…and this diversity is celebrated….because God so obviously celebrates this diversity….look at us…we’re all different and special. (ecumenical)

    This is so hard for some people to wrap their thoughts around. It is a part of our human and fallen condition to want to be around people that think like us and are like us. While, to some degree, I agree that we should be around people that we share attributes with…it is SOOOOOO important to understand and celebrate the diversity of God’s people. Spiritually, some are more pious than others, some are really “rough around the edges”, some are loud, some are meek, some are struggling, some have overcome struggle, some are teachers, all are students. I often sit in amazement when I hear one denomination bash another (and yes, I have been guilty of it! Though I am usually bashing the close mindedness not the beliefs)…or one group of people pass judgment on another (as in racism), or one group of believers that sit in judgment of other believers….we are all God’s children. What part of that do we not understand?

    What we call churches, small communities of followers and believers in Christ……are simply communities of people with some shared threads in life. I believe that it is not until we can respect the diversity of other communities of followers that we can truly be the the “Church” that God wants us to be.

    On a more personal level, I would like to take this a step further: Why can I not allow my Jewish friend or Muslim friend ownership of his/her beliefs? Why MUST he/she believe as I believe? Is this relativism? No….it is simply loving my neighbor as myself. Am I “condoning” their beliefs by not hating them or adamantly rebuking them? No, I am man enough to take ownership of my beliefs. I cannot even begin to dialog and share my beliefs if I am not willing to listen to theirs.

    Many will disagree with me here. That is okay. I would like to offer additionally that it takes strength, not weakness to take ownership of your beliefs and thoughts while humbly listening to others and not needing to be self affirmed by only being around those who agree with you. I don’t know if that makes sense. I believe that some folk are inside unsure of themselves (and may not even know it) and so they have to present this “sure” front. I also believe that some folks need to save the world, blindly not realizing that God is in control and is the only one that can save the world.

    Please, please……tell me what you think….

Comments (18)

  • i agree completely – that said  -it seems to me there is always a point – a ‘deal breaker’ where we allow ourselves the ‘right’ to judge another – we will say -perhaps, rightly so – and then be guilty as the ‘lesser judges’

    for instance – we will / won’t throw stones at the lutheran,jew/scientist…

    the gay/glutton/murderer who believes and acknowledes his weakness

    the abuser/child rapist….how deep shall we go?

    the selfrighteous/the monk who needs no one/televangelist….

    just thinking out loud….

  • To semi-quote Arnold Horshack, “OOH! OOH! Mr Putterbaugh, I’ve got something to say!”  I just can’t say it NOW…I’m on the way out the door with the grandkids…but this is another GREAT discussion point, Jan..I’ll be back.

    ’till then…jim

  • So true! I agree with you completely.

  • Oh I like this….

    Especially the part about allowing others their beliefs. Something I was just thinking about this morning. I am currently reading “The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture” by Bart Ehrman and I know that I get as incensed at people who are closed-minded as they do at me for being open-minded.

    Just this morning I was wondering why is it we can’t just allow one another to be who we are and believe what we believe. Let God lead us His way instead of pushing and shoving one another into our little box?

    I thought I was subscribed to you, but apparently not, so now I am.
    I think I don’t come by so often because of the length of your treatises, but I do want you on my list for those days, like yesterday, when I look down the list and say, “hmmm, who haven’t I visited lately?”

    Anyway, good job – as usual!

  • I’m on the way out the door myself, but want everyone to know that I appreciate your comments and will respond soon. Jimmish….Love the pic dude I can’t wait to hear what you have to say, as it is always wise, thoughtful and GODd. God bless you all. Have a great day!

  • ryc pamilvr: Thank you for joining the discussion I am not sure I fully understand your comment. There is a difference between many of the groups you mention…..some are related to sin (abuser, child rapist, glutton, murderer, etc…) while others have nothing to do with sin (Lutheran, Jew, scientist, etc…). Just trying to figure out your point here. I have been known to be dense

    ryc Jimmish and peacefulvaganmom: Thank your for commenting God bless!

    ryc BreathofDawn: Yes, my post are often long Thank you for visiting and joining the discussion I especially appreciate your comment, “Just this morning I was wondering why is it we can’t just allow one another to be who we are and believe what we believe. Let God lead us His way instead of pushing and shoving one another into our little box?” (my emphasis added). God bless you and thank you for subscribing! (I can’t promise short post though, LOL)

  • Jan, I just finished a long weekend with the kids, which culminated in a 9 hour trip on treacherous roads (the trip is normally 6 to 7 hours), followed by a collapse on my couch at about 1 or 1:30 am…I think I’ll have the energy to respond this afternoon, after I take care of some important, heretofore deferred, errands.

  • Jan, good thoughts as usual. Here are some of mine.

    Where did denominations come from? MAN. Where does religion come from? MAN. The TRUTH is not a denomination or a religion.

    We are all special in God’s eyes. All unique, yet all made in his image. That is an awesome concept, and he loves us ALL as a father loves his children. In a ‘free’ society we must allow each other to have his or her own belief/s. We have to listen and learn. Only from a position of understanding and knowledge do you have the right to make comment. Jesus (a Jew) made judgements because of his complete knowledge and understanding of Scriptures. Obviously as followers of Jesus we believe he is the only WAY. But only by living the WAY he taught us to do, will we ever influence the beliefs of others.

    pamilvr: I think there are two issues here. As followers of Jesus we may not approve of or condone the abuser, child rapist, glutton, murderer, etc… We may ‘judge’ them as sinners against God’ word, but we must also ‘love them as we love ourselves’ (God’s commandment). Not an easy thing to do!!! And most of us fail (I do anyway).  Acknowledging our weakness is all well and good, but acknowledging is of little value unless an attempt is made to change. God  forgives those who repentance and are willing to try to follow his teaching.

  • I believe that truth is truth, no matter where that truth is found…..and when truth is found….it is Jesus

    Can a Muslim show me Jesus? Can a Jew give me a clearer understanding of the Messiah? Can a buddhist help me to grasp contemplation in a deeper sense?

    A great travesty in the church today is that we misunderstand and believe that we as Christians have truth bottled up. When Jesus tells us that He is “the way, the truth, and the life” that means that where there is truth, there is Jesus…..He is truth.

    In Corinthians, Paul quotes a pagan poet at Mars Hill. Why? Because his words spoke truth about God. So that truth was relevant.

    Diversity is a must, there is no choice about it. Openness is even more of a must.

    Thanks Jan.

  • Well, you probably know that I agree with what you said here. I think we need to keep in mind that the great commandment is to love God and love others. It’s not to argue, cajole, or browbeat someone who has a different belief system.

    I also think what St. Francis said about “proclaim the gospel of Christ and when necessary use words” is important. To me, words are cheap. Show people Christ in you and they will want to have the same peace that passes all understanding that resides in you.

  • jsnrws: I don’t think that you meant it this way, but we as Christians do have truth bottled up. So much so that we don’t share it!

  • I am reminded of a teaching tool used by marriage counselors. Couples in counseling are shown a graphic of an equilateral triangle: the apex labeled God or Jesus, and the base corners labeled as the wife and husband. The principle is obvious: as the individuals draw closer in their journey toward their (shared) primary goal of unity and closeness to Christ, they become closer to each other. This can certainly serve us well as individual members of the church. Our primary individual focus is not on each other, but on Christ, and growing and learning toward Him.

    This is not to say that we should NOT focus on each other, different as we may be. If the church is not able to focus appropriately on the members thereof, it is without the engine for it’s primary directive: to show Christ to the world. Jesus did not say lightly,

       “By this shall all men know that you are my disciples; that you love one another as I have loved you.”

    Does this mean that  everything is OK in acceptance of the beloved, or that “sin” is to be considered a passe concept? Far from it, if we are to follow the example of Jesus. He scathingly chastised Peter as a “satan”, or enemy, for even suggesting that Jesus take a less violent path  to his end. He, while forgiving the woman caught sleeping with another woman’s husband, admonished her to “…sin no more that no worse (consequences) may befall you.” He taught sternly against hypocrisy, cruelty, injustice, adultery, lust…in short, he was very INtolerant of sin, directing us to “be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

    This is continued in the teachings of the apostles to the church. Ananias and Sapphira paid a fearsome price for deceit in the body of believers. Paul uses the word “condemn” in reference to a man in the church body living in open sexual immorality, and directs the local church to put him out. He indicates that sickness and death can be the consequence of sin in the lives of the members of the church.

    I think a phrase key in ecumenism should be our watchword:
                                                                              In essentials, Unity
                                                                              In non-essentials, Liberty
                                                                              In all things, Charity

       So, what are these essentials? Surprisingly few, if we listen to Paul, the apostles, and the New Testament. They are to believe in Jesus of Nazareth as the unique Son of the only God; that He lived on earth in the flesh, died for the remission of sins, once, for all, and that He was resurrected from the dead. We are instructed not to defame Christ or His church by living dissoluteley, but rather to live exemplary, Godly, “holy” lives.

    We cannot ignore the exclusivity of some of the clear statements of Jesus. To do so puts us in the untenable position of judging Him and his statements; choosing that which we deem worthy at our whim. Worse, we reduce Jesus to something far less than the sovereign, authoritative Son of God. 

    So, in the church we have some uncompromisable claims…if not, the church of Christ has nothing unique to offer, and may as well be an open philosophical debating society.Further, I have seen christian groups torn apart, and their local mission destroyed when they were too open, without a stong pulse of the core truths being reinforced. It is not the loving parent who watches without intervening as a child continues in error after error; reaping larger and larger consequences with the passage of time.

    Granted all the above; that there are immutable core truths and values to be held in the church, I believe we have a wide degree of latitude in our relationships with each other as we “grow together toward Christ”.

    I believe we can listen to, and learn from, each other; with respect for each individual’s need to make the path to Christ their own. In 1 Timothy, 2 Peter, and even in Ezekiel 18 we hear that God does not delight in the death of those who turn away from Him, but rather that His desire is that all would turn, and come to Him….so we have a duty to facilitate that, loving as Christ loved (tender, fierce, uncompromising and gentle). We are instructed to do any such leading with respect and gentleness. Nowhere do I see admonition to call the point at which another is in their path of discovery before encountering Christ worthless or invalid. Paul actually, as noted in another comment above, quoted a pagan shrine in respecting where his audience was “at”, as a touchstone to  the truth of God as revealed by Jesus.

    No one would think of Paul as wishy-washy, or wavering about the exclusivity of the gospel, yet it is this same Paul who said
                           

                           “I have become all things to all people so that by all means some might be saved”

    We are given practical instruction in leading with respect; even when another may be in error:

    “Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. And the Lord’s servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.” 1 Timothy 23-26

    May we gently share with each other that which Christ has gone to such great pains to deliver to us, and gain from each other a wider view of the depth and richness of God

    Jim

  • ryc Jim: I know how you feel. Our company is moving locations and I have been working 6 days a week plus the usual ministry at night and I just need some r-e-s-t God bless you my friend!

    ryc intheson: I certainly agree that “The TRUTH is not a denomination or a religion”. You said it well: “Obviously as followers of Jesus we believe he is the only WAY. But only by living the WAY he taught us to do, will we ever influence the beliefs of others.”. Thank you for joining the discussion. God bless!

    ryc: Jason (jsnrws): I agree, “I believe that truth is truth, no matter where that truth is found…..and when truth is found….it is Jesus”. Thanks for adding to the discussion God bless!

    ryc Ron: Preach it my friend! God bless!

  • There is another great conversation going on over at Jason’s site about “solutions” for the church: “Solution #1: Cover Shame….Renew Righteousness….Restore Lives”

  • WOW Jim………you woke up! Preach it my friend! God bless!!!! I agree very much and “I think a phrase key in ecumenism should be our watchword:                                                                           In essentials, Unity
                                                                              In non-essentials, Liberty
                                                                              In all things, Charity
     

    This is the summary of our beliefs at LifePoint Christian Church:  
    In essential beliefs – UNITY.
    There is one Body and one Spirit…there is one Lord, one faith, one baptism, and one God and Father of us all…. ~ Ephesians 4:4-6

    In non-essential beliefs – FREEDOM.
    Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters…Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls…So then each of us will give an account of himself to God…So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. ~ Romans 14:1, 4, 12, 22

    In all things – LOVE.
    …If I hold in my mind not only all human knowledge but also the very secrets of God, and if I have faith that can move mountains – but have no love, I amount to nothing at all. ~ 1 Corinthians 13:2

  • How sobering is the line, WHO ARE YOU TO JUDGE SOMEONE ELSE”S SERVANT?”

    WOW!

  • I agree with the line of discussion on “unity, liberty, charity.”  I wish we could get all Christians to understand this.  A friend of mine, who is a Covenant Church pastor, and I are going to an Orthodox church service tomorrow morning (the feast of St. Gregory the Theologian).  We are both anticipating a wonderful time of worshiping with people who are family, yet don’t do it the way we’re used to.

    I’m glad that not everyone makes their hamburgers the same way!  Life would be boring if they did!

  • ryc Father Ryan: Thank you for joining the discussion. May God bless you!

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