January 9, 2007
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What is Church?
(Part 1) (Part 2) This is Part 3
My friend Jim Smallish (Jimmish), commented the following: “I agree that the Church is a diverse group of many individuals at different stages in their growth in Christ, each with unique gift(s). It is also (or, certainly should be), a refuge or haven for the hurting , wounded, blind, deaf and lame; both literally and spiritually. The tricky part often comes in having a church with a solid core of Godly, Christ-centered direction which embraces even the “most foul sinner”, while retaining its strength, purity and direction. I have seen open Christian institutions set badly off course when the influence of those “taken in” was allowed to redirect the whole.”
This raises such a relevant question:
How do we have a church with a solid core of Godly, Christ-centered direction which embraces even the “most foul sinner”, while retaining its strength, purity and direction?
Please feel free to share your stories that touch on this topic.
I would note that the discussion is ongoing on these topics in what has started to become a series in itself.
Please feel free to continue to comment and add to the discussion here as well:
(Part 1) What is Church?
(Part 2) If we were to want to be a “kingdom focused” church…..what would it look like?Again, thank you all for joining in this discussion
God bless each of you for your hearts and love for our Lord!Please, please……tell me what you think….
Comments (15)
Stay centered on Christ and Him crucified. Sin is transient, so one way or another it’s going to go away. Either the sinner dies, and the sin dies with him/her, or the sinner comes to Jesus Christ. The power of the death of Jesus on the cross over sin is without equal. I don’t think we believe that Jesus is really the answer for sin, because we keep taking Him off the cross. What the Bible calls sin is regularly accepted by the Religious left. Where there is no sin there is no need for Jesus on a cross. The Religious Right on the other hand is continually pointing it’s condemning finger at the sins of the world. The Religious Right keeps taking Jesus off the cross so they can crucify the sinner in His place. PUT JESUS BACK WHERE HE BELONGS!!! There is no need to excuse the sin, because Jesus will remove it. There is no need to crucify the sinner, because “He who knew no sin became sin.”
That’s my 2 cents on the matter!
Lonnie
“How do we have a church with a solid core of Godly, Christ-centered direction which embraces even the “most foul sinner”, while retaining its strength, purity and direction?”
I do not think these are mutually exclusive or even difficult to accomplish, just need to stay focused on “the core.”
Mt 22:36-40 captures the core vision in accomplishing the answer to your question:
“Teacher, which is the most important commandment in the law of Moses?” Jesus replied, ” ‘You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. A second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the other commandments and all the demands of the prophets are based on these two commandments.”
My preference when attempting to answer big questions is to keep my answers simple…
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ryc Lonnie: First….I like your hat…..I am slowly going there…….. Anyway, Graet perspective! This is often an easy thing to understand but I often see people having a hard time putting it into practice. I certainly agree, “There is no need to excuse the sin, because Jesus will remove it. There is no need to crucify the sinner, because ‘He who knew no sin became sin.’”
ryc Jim: Very simple yet very true answer. This Scripture in Matthew, as you note, is what I believe to be the very CORE of what Jesus, indeed God….in the flesh, came to share with us and to get straight.
Thank you for your comments! How does this thought translate in action. When two homosexuals start attending church, or when someone starts attending that is an alcoholic, or that you know has had an affair or IS having an affair…..how does this translate?
You raise one of the best questions I’ve heard in a while about the practical function of the “church”. This is the reason for doctrine and the value of doctrine – a clear course. The only true doctrine of course is that outlined in scripture, the narrow road to Christ through the person of Christ. All things must be measured against God’s perfect standard. That’s easier said than done of course, never the less it is what it is.
ryc FKI Professor: This is one of the hardest questions to answer and be in agreement on. I agree that “The only true doctrine of course is that outlined in scripture, the narrow road to Christ through the person of Christ. All things must be measured against God’s perfect standard.” Unfortunately this depends on which Scripture is being used. Thanks for your comments and adding to the conversation
Jan you pose the question, “When two homosexuals start attending church, or when someone starts attending that is an alcoholic, or that you know has had an affair or IS having an affair…..how does this translate?”
This is a really hard one. I think we need to ask the question ‘What would Jesus do?’ The answer is quite clear from the gospels, he would treat everyone as an individual; each as one of God’s unique children. People who do not ‘conform’ to ‘church’ norms, who are seeking and or marginalised need compassion. Each church needs a stucture of pastoral support, people who are able to welcome and get alongside without being judgemental. This is definitely not everyone’s gift, and within any church there are always those who will make snap judgements, gossip etc.which can lead to mistrust and eventually rejection.
Maybe we need to be more prepared for these kinds of situations in our ever changing society, put programmes and people in place who have this gifting.
However the one thing that we must not do is compromise or water down what it means to be a follower of Jesus. The bottom line is that only by living our lives daily in Jesus’ name will we be able to have a real influence.
Easy to talk about BUT much much harder to actually DO.
How was your Christmas?
short answer…… leadership….that’s how you keep any endeavor on course….focus on what’s important….don’t sweat what’s not…
but I’ll be back for further comment….also we, want to be careful we don’t come off as protecting the country club…leadership is key….but lest we make it all about us, we should remember the church is for broken people which is all of us….church leadership is for those who are called to use their gifts, skills and vision to help others….as should be the case with all of us, we should strive to be more like God (as opposed to being more God-like), and filling our lives with Him and not ourselves and whatsoever thinngs are not pure, or holy or whatever….more later….
Jan, if Christians believed that the cross of Jesus could remove sin then there would be no problem with the homosexual couple who comes in the door. All the Christians in the room would be salavating and wringing their hands at the thought of the opportunity to see the power of God work in the lives of the lost people. “Look gay people!! Oh thank you dear Lord for sending these lost people into our midst, so that we can show them Your mercy and power through Jesus!!” And as soon as the prayer was done there would be a collective shout GET ‘EM!! BUT we don’t believe. I mean, come on, why would you accept sin if you believe Jesus can really take it away?? Why would we makd such a big deal about homosexual sin if we know the cross of Jesus has already destroyed the power of the sin??? WE don’t actually believe what the Bible says, and our lives and attitudes show it.
The Stone Wall Riots that kicked off the gay rights movement happened almost 40 years ago, and we’re still asking “what would you do if gay people walked into your church??? ARE YOU KIDDING ME??? After almost 40 years we still don’t know how to minister the love, healing and deliverance of Jesus Christ to people who practice homosexuality?? That’s not a case of ignorance that’s nothing short of obstinacy and unbelief. We don’t know how to deal with the gay couple, because we don’t want to know how to deal with them. We want a church that reflects the American dream. But Jesus died on a cross so that the homosexual, the adulterer, the racist, the abortion provider, and ”just everyday Joe” could be free from the bondage of sin. Jesus died on a Roman cross because He was motivated by one thing: Love…. Until we are motivated by God’s love, God’s plan, and God’s agenda we’re never going to believe the power of the cross for ourselves, or the lost people who come through the doors of our churches. The gates of Hell don’t have to prevail against the church, we’re doing a beautiful of job of it ourselves……WE tear down the Church as we pursue the same lifestyles the lost people around us chase.
Lonnie
Two homosexuals, two liars, two thieves, etc. It doesn’t matter. As lonnie pointed out, we must be motivated by love first. Then the “action” is clear.
ryc intheson: I agree very much, “The answer is quite clear from the gospels, he would treat everyone as an individual; each as one of God’s unique children.” We should provide compassion…..we should be a vehicle that brings people to the cross not a gate that keeps people away.
ryc Pilgrim: Had a good Christmas Pilgrim
I pray that you did also. I see that you have read “The Audacity of Hope” by Barack Obama. My wife is reading it and she can’t put it down. He provides a fresh vision and a fresh perspective. I have listened to him speak and find him grounded in reality and fresh in thought and focused on people. God bless!
ryc James (iamthelostfrog): I agree very much that “we, want to be careful we don’t come off as protecting the country club”. This often seems to something that churches evolve into if we do not provide solid Christ centered leadership. “we should remember the church is for broken people which is all of us”….I believe that you have hit the nail on the head…at least in my mind. Thank you, as always for your thoughts and contribution to the conversation (you often have a knack for starting these conversations). God bless you brother!
ryc Lonnie: I can certainly agree with what you say
“We want a church that reflects the American dream.”…..this does, unfortunately seem to often be the case. But, I believe that we need to continue to transform from the inside out simply by being that which we preach. I am proud to say that I am a part of a community of followers in which a very many do understand that church is a place for the lost, a place of transformation, refuge and healing. Thank you for your comments and for joining the conversation. God bless!
ryc Jim: Amen my brother! God bless….and now I am off to make a cup of kingdom coffee
Thank you for your comment on my blog. I left the Amish in 1990. People would say I am nothing because I am not a member of any denomination, nor attend church on a regular basis at this point in my life. I got burned with church life and so here I am… My old post is: kt1952, where I shared more about my life. I subscribed to your post because I am wanting to know what true church life is mend to be.
Truth in love… sounds old school, or like just another Christian catch phrase but this is how you have sinners, both those who have accepted Christ gift and those who have not yet, come together and glorify God. Truth and love seems to be used more and more as a modern church call to tolerance as American society see tolerance. “Be careful what you teach in church, you may offend someone”. In response to the question of this blog, how can we have church without, ”a solid core of Godly, Christ-centered direction which embraces even the ‘most foul sinner’, while retaining its strength, purity and direction?”, we can’t have church without it. What we must remember is that as we embrace the “most foul sinners” like me, we are also called to lead them closer to Christ by directing them to the Word and encouraging them to follow the life Christ has for us. Can it be done without loosing the lost? YES.
Billy Graham, Bill Sunday, and the likes have done so and look at the results. The spoke the truth, not from hate or judgment, but rather from love, compassion, empathy, and passion for Christ’s desire to have all know Him. Listen to their messages, direct, simple, and no acronyms needed. They spoke the truth directly and with love. Always with a call to accept Christ, they never passed an opportunity for that, and never ever squeamish about rather others would be offended. So your name isn’t Billy, don’t worry, here’s a thought.
2 Peter 1:5-7 outlines how we are to develop as followers of Christ in such a great applicable way as only God can do. The problem is when the church, the body of Christ crucified, hides for fear of being offensive and neglects to share this path step by step as the lost develop in their walk with Christ. Don’t throw out the list and say, “here, this is what you are doing wrong and also how you are to develop, now get to it”. Rather it takes, as James mentioned, Leadership. Not the leadership of getting in front of a crowd and motivating them but rather the leadership to find those in need of Christ, take hold of their hand, and lead them step by step all the way until they can do the same for someone else. It takes time, and it takes courage in Christ.
If we can follow what Christ examples in the Word shows and truly desire for all to have a walk with Christ more then for them to just change their sinful ways, we will then begin to look at the two homosexuals, the adulterer, the liar, not as evil incarnate that should be destroyed but rather as an opportunity to lead. My new motto for life, “Bring them all, and share the Truth at all times!”
ryc KatieTroyer:
Thank you for joining our conversation 
As I mentioned on your blog, my grandmother was Amish and I have fine recollections of much hat she taught me in her gentle and loving spirit. I am sorry that you have had bad experiences inside an organized church (many of us have), however, I would encourage you to continue to look for a community of followers and believers that you feel comfortable with. It is sad, to me, when denominations of believers believe that they are “right” or the only way. The Scriptures are very clear in the distinction of “the Church” (the Ekklesia, a community of called out followers and believers in Christ…we call this the “little c church” or the organization) and the “Basileia“…this is the “kingdom”, the kingdom of God or the kingdom of heaven…both are the same. We call this the “big C church”.
It is interesting to me that Jesus mentions the Ekklesia only twice, both in the Gospel of Matthew, Mathew 16:18 and Matthew 18:17 (it is mentioned 115 times in the New Testament total). The word Basileia, or “kingdom” is mentioned 120 times in the Gospels alone (primarily by Jesus) for a total of 154 times throughout the New Testament. I believe that this, in it’self, shows the relationship between our communities of followers and believers (the Ekklesia) and the big C church…the kingdom of God (the Basileia). We are all a part of the same Church…………and we should act like it
Thank you again Katie for joining us. I thoroughly have enjoyed reading your blog entries (both KatieTroyer and kt1952) as they are refreshing and honest. You said it best in June when you posted, “True Christian faith is not about being religious or doing rituals or ceremonies or anything like that. It is about living in a relationship with our Creator: It is about living the way we were designed to live.” May God bless you!
ryc SteveDebra: You point out some very important facts:
I agree very much that we should preach and live the Word, as the Word speaks for it’self. We should never be careful what we teach in church, as we might offend someone. We should simply speak the Word and let the Holy Spirit move as the Word comes alive in the hearts of us the hearer’s. People take offense now days when something is told to them that they do not want to hear. I call it “conviction”. NOW, I MUST SAY THIS: Many reading this might think that we are talking fire and brimstone, judgemental attitude and the like. This sounds so negative. However, what I hear you saying is that we must not gloss over parts of God’s Words to us, the Scriptures, that are hard for us to follow…..HELLO…this is God’s wisdom we need to know! Indeed, the strongest and most prolific message in the Bible is that of love, grace and mercy….those subjects which sometimes “sting” should never be glossed over but should be taught in the context of the overall message. (I hope this made sense
).
And I just have to agree so much with 1 Peter 1:5-9, “5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.” This just makes the point, and clear, verse 9, again, ” But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.“
I share your new motto, “Bring them all, and share the Truth at all times!” God bless!