January 8, 2007

  • What is Church?

    (Part 1) This is Part 2

    We have been studying the kingdom of heaven/the kingdom of God over the last year here.  Our “Clues” page is here and an index to this study (43 post so far) is here.

    If we were to want to be a “kingdom focused” church…..what would it look like?

    I believe there are many “flavors”…mostly revolving around music….contemporary, traditional, rap, Southern Gospel, etc………..but….”flavor” aside (unless you think the type of music is important to be a “kingdom focused” church)…….what would it look like?

    Thank you all for joining in this discussion God bless each of you for your hearts and love for our Lord!

    Please, please……tell me what you think….

Comments (25)

  • For me Jan, music plays a big part. But I don’t necessarily mean ‘Christian’ music. I quite often find that secular music can have a powerful impact on my life and lead me into areas of thought, worship and prayer. And they seem to trigger thoughts at opportune moments, moments when maybe I’m in ‘tune’ (sorry) with God or feel that he is speaking to me. My last post is an example. I have been reading Soul Cravings by Erwin McManus and he talks about God’s love being unconditional. The next morning I hear a Simply Red song and the line, ‘love never came with a maybe’. Its a simple line, but oh so true. Real love, true love, God’s love has no maybe about it! It lead me into doing a devotion at work with our staff and volunteers (some of whom are not Christians), about loving God and our neighbours as ourselves. There are other songs, for example, Van Morrison’s, ‘Have I told you lately that I love you?’ 

    Lee Anne Womak’s  ‘I Hope You Dance’ - has words of that are appropriate to any follower of Jesus, especially the line, ‘never settle for the path of least resistance’. And then Elton John’s, ‘The Bridge’ where the chorus is,

    And every one of us has to face that day
    Do you cross the bridge or do you fade away
    And every one of us that ever came to play
    Has to cross the bridge or fade away.

    Then there are the tracks that make you stop and think, ‘why do we not get through to the unchurched?’, like Coldplay’s ‘Talk  

    Oh brother I can’t, I can’t get through
    I’ve been trying hard to reach you, cause I don’t know what to do
    Oh brother I can’t believe it’s true
    I’m so scared about the future and I wanna talk to you
    Oh I wanna talk to you ………

    Well I feel like they’re talking in a language I don’t speak
    And they’re talking it to me.

    I suppose what I’m saying is that I think there are situations where secular music, film etc can be used effectively to focus our thoughts and make connections with those who are currently seaking, or not even at that point.

    There’s that statement that we often use – its a bit of a cliche but its true – ‘we need to meet people where they are at.’

  • not to hijack your post, but are you talking church or church service? that kind of brings us to my post that started my current line of questions….what would it look like? meets in a park, in someone’s house….feeds the homeless, focuses on helping single mothers and others with childcare…picks up garbage on the side of the road…fixes or paints houses for people in the community who need help…

    in some ways it’s easy to focus our love and investment on the church body around us and meet the needs right in front of us…jeri’s taking dinner to Todd and co tonight…sometimes it seems to be all we can do to take care of each other…are we then called primarily to ministries of opportunity (i met a hungry man so i fed him, i met a cold man so i gave him my coat…)…i think to what level we invest ourselves in looking for and actively going out and seeking those types of opportunities kind of tells where we are on the sliding growth scale of christianity…today Jan was more like Jesus cause he went to grace and grits…he sought out those in need of love rather than just waiting for them to come to his church….no to say God doesn’t bring people to churches or relationships with those who can help them…or that he doesn’t bring us to them….but it’s sort of a meter of my children’s maturity whether I have to keep telling them to clean up or whether they own it and realize they should do it themselves…

    I’ve heard that’s the sign of when you’re actually a grown up…when you do things not because you want to but because your’re supposed to…because it’s the right thing to do….whether that means right for you or someone else… (taking out the trash, dusting, doing dishes) the same can be said for our christianity…when we seek opportunities to love others….to be God’s love to someone…that’s a sign of spiritual maturity….or at least I think so….

    i guess the same can be said for the spiritual maturity of a group of believers….or followers….but if we don’t model it, how will other’s know to follow? serving (loving) within the realm of a group of believers is one thing, but serving outside that group takes it to an entirely different level….sort a rethinking of the great commission….love yourself and your family…..love your Church family….love everyone else….wait….. i think i’m onto something……

    love your neighbor as yourself….and i love me a lot…..
    this is how you shall know them…that they have love one for another…….
    hmmmmmm seems to be a theme…..

  • ryc intheson:  Like you, music plays a big part for me. While I personally like and identify most with “Christianmusic” (Everyday Sunday, Skillet, Delerious, Matt Redman, Charlie Hall, David Crowder, Chris Tomlin and on and on and on) I strongly agree that “secular music, film etc can be used effectively to focus our thoughts and make connections with those who are currently seaking, or not even at that point. There’s that statement that we often use – its a bit of a cliche but its true – ‘we need to meet people where they are at.’ This is where I believe al lot of Christians have misunderstood….we HAVE to meet people where they are at…we can’t meet them when they get there. God bless!

    ryc James (iamthelostfrog):  I am talking church…the service itself can be and often is a varied thing. It is an environment for service. It can be any and all that you mention here. I went to church tonight, at a retirement home. It’s funny too, as so many have mentioned “recharging”…..that’s what happened to me tonight…I went in wore out from a day’s work…we sang songs of praise and worship, we shared thoughts, we prayed…I came home, I just came home full!

    I believe that God calls all of us differently and even at diferent times differently. He calls some to minister within the body of followers, some outside, and some to both or some combination of the two. I really like how you said, “when we seek opportunities to love others….to be God’s love to someone…” I believe that this can take place both inside and outside the church body….both are great. I really believe that what is MOST important is when God calls and we respond. God bless ya brother!

  • boy you opened a can of worms but half time is almost over so I can’t stay gotta cheer on my Buckeyes…  (c:  How’s that for worship and service? LOL!

  • ryc JC (Wildernesschild): My wife is watching the game too I just got through posting on your blog about the Old Testament concept of the kingdom of heaven/kingdom of God. Good conversation going on over there my friend

  • This is a great discussion. I’ll definately swing back in when I have more time and follow all the links you provided…

    I agree with what iamthelostfrog has said. It’s so important that we meet people where they are, instead of waiting for them to come to US- cause it’s quite possible they may never come!

    It’s crucial that we go out into the world and BE the Church (like what you’re always busy doing)- helping others in practical but life altering ways, ministering to them in the ways they’re NEEDING and desiring it, instead of waiting for them to come and be ministered in the ways we *think* they should be ministered to.

    Great stuff! :)

  • Kingdom focused church would focus on God, and on supplying what the people needed to help them to form solid relationships with God. Because God treats each of us individually, I don’t think there is one way for church. The musts are the basic tenents of Christianity, and the Bible, God’s word, prayer, praise, thanksgiving, and worship. But the flavor can be individual

    Heather

  • OK, OK..Smallish is a topic behind! What else is new?

    I agree that the Church is a diverse group of many individuals at different stages in their growth in Christ, each with unique gift(s). I t is also (or, certainly should be), a refuge or haven for the hurting , wounded, blind, deaf and lame; both literally and spiritually.

    The tricky part often comes in having a church with a solid core of Godly, Christ-centered direction which embraces even the “most foul sinner”, while retaining its strength, purity and direction. I have seen open Christian institutions set badly off course when the influence of those “taken in” was allowed to redirect the whole.

    Since this is no longer a current topic..I’ll stop there.

    Music is a huge part of the experience for me, but the most riveting times I ever had in a Church were in one particular Church in which the pastor had a passion for, and gift in teaching the Psalms…God’s word; printed and preached has to be at the heart. Speaking of the heart, God’s love HAS TO define both the individual church member, and the church corporate. If that is not there, I believe that both are truly, as Paul staes, “..noisy gong(s) or .. clashing cymbal(s).”

    God’s Love…Jim

  • Heather, as you say, solid relationships with God are most important, but are we not required by him to develop solid relationships with each other, so that His Kingdom increases and the ‘body’ becomes stronger? And the ‘body’ is the ‘church’. The body (Ephesians) is made up of many unique parts working in harmony.

  • ryc peacefulveganmom: Thank you for adding so much to the conversation. You have a good conversation starting over at your place too I will be following it (Art Boule’s thoughts on evangelicals and homosexuality: “Homosexuality, Projection and Sanctification“). God bless!

  • ryc Heather (Wondering04): I would certainly agree that a kingdom focused church would focus on God.  I am always moved by Jesus Words in Matthew 22:36-40. The religous authorities asked Jesus what the greatest commandment was and as you point out….it was to love God. Yet Jesus felt compelled to point out additionally and as importantly (as if both are one or at least on the same level of the playing field) that we are to love our neighbor as ourselves.

    I always like to point out that I want my children to love me…that is important and makes me feel good…..but just as important or maybe even more importantly…I want my children to love others in the world…THAT gives me a great feeling that my words to them have been heard….I somehow believe that God is the same way with us.  I appreciate your comments very much as well as your contribution to the conversation God bless you!

    ryc Jim (jimmish): You bring up a good point, “The tricky part often comes in having a church with a solid core of Godly, Christ-centered direction which embraces even the “most foul sinner”, while retaining its strength, purity and direction. I have seen open Christian institutions set badly off course when the influence of those “taken in” was allowed to redirect the whole.” 

    Please don’t stop here……continue on my friend I believe that you may have identified the next question on my list…….I’ll go there later

    Like you, I feel the Spirit in the music….but just as dear to my heart, is the Word’s of God. He cared enough to enter our finite world and share His heart with us, which is proven over and over again to wise, Spirit filled, life changing….I agree, “God’s word; printed and preached has to be at the heart.” I also strongly agree, “Speaking of the heart, God’s love HAS TO define both the individual church member, and the church corporate. If that is not there, I believe that both are truly, as Paul staes, “..noisy gong(s) or .. clashing cymbal(s).” Thank you for joining the conversation! God bless!

    ryc intheson: I very much agree, we are “required by him to develop solid relationships with each other, so that His Kingdom increases and the ‘body’ becomes stronger? And the ‘body’ is the ‘church’. It amazes me that God’s Word speaks to people thousands of miles away in the same way. God bless!

  • Music soothes the soul but how much music to too much. For me, my 1st experience at Lifepoint was by far my best experience. 

    Phil played sat up on the stage and strummed his acoustic guitar while he spoke. It was so beautiful! From there several members, including you and your wife, gave testimony regarding the financial class you all took. Then there was communion, Phil played a little more and then Pastor Steve spoke. It was a wonder service! Quiet, calm, and so very informative.

    So for me, I like “testimonies.” I like to hear real folks get up in front of everyone and tell how God’s miracles touched them.Real people, real stories, real power. I love it!  It energizes me to hear thier stories and I leave with a sense of awe & amazement. Music is ok but the stories, wow.

  • ryc two_bees_please: Regarding your question of, “how much music to too much”.   This is certainly an individual preference. As I have noted on SteveDebra’s blog (I can only explain by telling what the music does for me), our music at LifePoint moves me as much as an organ moves my mom. When I sing the songs we sing at LifePoint……I feel the spirit moving through me as I sing these words of praise. However…I find the music is more of a “color” choice. Rock, rap, country, traditional church in style….all can accomplish what the Psalms accomplished in the hearts of believers. None are right, none are wrong….just a choice One thing I would note is that the performance and supporting roles of those involved in the music are involved in the communal worship also….not just by performing or supporting…but often times by worshiping in this way.

    To answer your question more directly
    It depends on the person. I have heard from many people that it would be nice to have a complete service of nothing but music….because the music is the message. To me, it would be like having an hour prayer service…because these songs to me are a communication from me to God…directly as I sing. The words are so moving to me….many directly out of the Bible.

    I have also know of people who are not moved by the music at all. Loretta wears headphones. There is nothing wrong with this…it’s personal preference.

    I would say that the music at LifePoint is one of the things that defines us uniquely in the kingdom……however, I would not say that the music, wheter there or absent, makes us “kingdom focused”. It’s primarily the people and the message that make us “kingdom focused”   I would add that our music is organic, by the people….we have done country Gospel Sunday’s with full band, Rap song’s, hymns (I admit that they are flavored by who we are as band members).

    I remember that gathering It was nice and yes, it was quiet and calm I also am moved by peoples personal testimonies. After all, it is one of the greatest gifts that God has given us…..our life to share. I look forward to hearing your testimony sometime as I am like you, I am in awe and amazement of hearing how God is working, how the Spirit is moving among us, God’s people.

    Thank you for joining the conversation and thank you for your perspective, it’s important! God bless you!

  • A kingdom focused church would have members that pass the gospel to their children. 

    Each father of a family would be pastor to his wife and children, successfully accomplishing what Adam did not. 

    A kingdom focused church would not meet in church buildings and burdening one individual (preacher}with the reading and teaching of God’s bible, God’s word.  A kingdom focused church is actually a family unit in which God’s love flows through the father like a pipeline to each individual in the family. 

    The pastor father would have many concordances and theology books but mostly all interpretations would be done at the kitchen table while all family members participate. 

    A kingdom focused church  would follow the Sabbath strictly and lovingly so that time was not wasted on Sunday in searching and reading God’s holy words to be renewed and refreshed for the week.  This Sabbath adherance would give more time to read God’s word, around six to eight hours each Sunday. 

    In the kingdom focused church no longer would one man stand between God and the sinner like a curtain and black out whole portions of Paul’s letters on grace and heap burdens on people’s shoulders by preaching the mosaic laws, or some part of, as if man can earn his way to heaven, or earn his way to become closer to God. 

    In the kingdom focused church, the father pastor would read all books of the bible, all equelly valid, even prophetic books, as led by the Holy Spirit for proper interpretation. 

    The kingdom focused pastor father would place very little attention to what prior theologian interpreted and more on what the Holy Spirit leads him. 

  • ryc RobertLeeRE: Interesting thoughts. Just asking the question, would you say then that you believe that a community of followers that meets (and is not a “blood” family unit) cannot be kingdom focused?

    I find it interesting that you characterize preachers as “burdened”……my experience is that most are “called” and “passionately serve”…not feeling burdened at all.

    I would be interested in Scripture that points to a “kingdom focused” church being a family (or a family only). I certainly do not want to sound like the family unit is not the basic unit God intended or that fathers should not lead their family spiritually. I recognize that what you may be saying, and what you describe, is one TYPE of kingdom focused church. You have some interesting thoughts my friend, I cannot say that I fully agree, but that’s okay God bless you!

  • RobertLeeRE, You say “The pastor father would have many concordances and theology books but mostly all interpretations would be done at the kitchen table while all family members participate.” That assumes a degree of education, of wealth, of postion in society. What about those who live in the ghettos, what about the ones who live on the streets and have no kitchen table?  You then go on to say that “The kingdom focused pastor father would place very little attention to what prior theologian interpreted.” What’s the point of having all the concordances and theology books then?

    Wher would Jesus have been? Would he have been round the middle class table or in the ghettos or areas where prostitutes go? Would he have just used his own ideas or would he have regularly quoted scripture  to make his points?

     With regard to teaching, leadership and family, both personal and wider church 1 Timothy 3 says:

    “Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer, he desires a noble task. Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) ……….. Deacons, likewise, are to be men worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons. In the same way, their wives are to be women worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.

     A deacon must be the husband of but one wife and must manage his children and his household well. Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus.”

    Some questions?

    How does this passage relate to today’s fractured family structure of divorce, of single parent families,  of same sex marriages that adopt children?

    Is the passage still relevant?

    How does it relate to leadership (or lack of) of the ‘church’ family? 

    Surely the whole thing about the church, about following Scripture, being on a journey with Jesus, is that it is about community. What Timothy was saying is important,  its about a principal. Its about truthful, honest leadership (male or female) caring for not only one’s own family but also the wider church family. Its about breaking down barriers, reaching out, about caring and loving.

    Sorry Jan for if I have hijacked this debate at little. Delete this if you feel its going off target?

  • <TABLE width=”100%”>
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    <TD class=PostTitle>Do the Churches Read Enough of God’s Word?
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    <TD class=Post>Do the Church Pastors read Enough of God’s Word?  

    I see the current state of the different sects of church in a fallen state at this time.  This is based upon where I live, not where you live.  I can only give you information that is subjective, my information, my experiences, not yours. 

    The churches here in Richmond, Virginia are completely lost, absent of the Holy Spirit and lost.  The most they read is one or two sentences of scripture each Sunday, usually out of context, followed by some kind of handshake ritual, maybe a hug ritual, all smiling and acting like your friend even though they would never have you over for coffee or visit you for coffee. 

    You would be lucky when going to church here if you read a whole paragraph of God’s word per week.  If that is not enough they expect you to be involved with some kind of church activities that take up more time but involve absolutely no spiritual growth.

    The problem is time.  My wife and I both work six days a week and our daughter goes to Korean school on Saturdays.  So it is like our daughter works six days a week also.  This is modern society I guess.  No time for self, no time to read God’s word.  So our expectation from Sunday are maybe greater than most families.

    Sunday school is no different.  You go there to learn and read what the bible says, what God says, and all you get is spoon fed unscriptural fluff that some evangelist wrote at sometime somewhere.  The elders always wish to read what another man wrote, never what God said in the bible.  When you point out that what the evangelist said does not line up with scripture the elder ostracizes you for daring to hold the group accountable to scriptural accuracy.  “Your making waves.”  They say.  “Your murmuring.” Others say.  Some say “Don’t rock the boat.”

    Children’s Sunday school is even worse.  My daughter was learning absolutely nothing over the last 15 churches we visited over a ten year period.  The children’s Sunday were nothing more than a babysitting service in which they would do some kind of artwork or something.  Meanwhile my daughter was growing up and growing up fast.

    I know some say “It’s not the church’s primary job to fill your family up with the word of God.”  And others say “This is the individual’s responsibility to read the word daily, get filled with the word.”  This is what I have to say to those people.  I see christians everywhere and very few people passing the gospel to their children.  The worst ones are the pastors and elders kids.  If they are an example it is not a very good one.  I see a  lot of people wearing polo shirts and playing golf but very little real spiritual growth. 

    So time was ticking away and I just kept wondering, in two years is my daughter going to be on drugs, will she have the full armor of God to be protected from the tulmulteous coming jr. high years, or will she have to learn the hard way like I did.  Will she have to learn at the school of hard knocks.

    So I just kept looking for a better church.  My expectations were not that high.  Just read a couple of pages out of the bible each week.  At the rate they were reading scripture it would take twenty years to get through the whole bible.  Hardly the armor my daughter needs to overcome all the spiritual attacks from, teachers on evolution, teachers on humanism, hollywood filth, Bus drivers playing ungodly music, friends with multiple piercings into gothic, teacher molesters, predators at your child’s bus stops, and generally all the cultural garbage of America.

    If these things were not enough I started to notice huge areas being ignored or blacked out so to speak by these teachers and pastors.  They would always quote the different epistles of Paul out of context, usually quoting one or two sentences rather than reading the whole letter.  Usually these same teachers were teaching some part of mosaic law or part of many times related to tithing as such or some type of Sabbath teaching as such.  And forget about the old testament and prophetic books.  They would ignore those altogether.

    Seems like a lot of acting like your doing something but very little real doing.  A lot of sailboats with no sails.  So after seeing my daughter almost grown up and my wife with very little spiritual growth I took a scary major step.  I decided to take my family out of church so we would have more time to get closer to God, more time to read the scriptures, more time to see what God said, in his word to mankind.  Rather than spend all day Sunday pretending we were getting close to God we decided to do it for real, in faith.  All of our families friends are christians anyways so we really didn’t need fellowship, we need to get filled up with the word of God.

    The first couple of weeks were real rough.  My wife and daughter,(4th grade), were not used to reading the bible more than couple of sentences or paragraph at most weekly.  They kept getting sleep and it seems they weren’t used to it.  They were not participating very well.  Dozing off at our kitchen table during church.  Of course the times were longer.  The first three Sundays were about  eight hour church reading services.  We would sometimes sing songs as the Holy Spirit led us.  Quick five minute snack and lunch breaks here and there were helpful. 

    My wife kept saying and comparing us to people in church and how little they were reading the bible.   I just kept teaching that anything, anything that separates us from God including pastors, friends, not following Sabbath, religions, sleepiness, anything that separates us from God is sin.  They agreed to get more rest before next Sunday. 

    After about five to six weeks of this suddenly I started seeing them participating more, actually enjoying it.  We were making headway I thought.  I instituted an additional scriptural reading for my daughter before school each day.  She would start reading the bible at the beginning of each day with a little leadership to avoid reading scripture out of context. 

    At about eight weeks their eyes were all shiny and bright.  It is now two years later and my daughter is in the sixth grade.  Last week my wife and I were used by God to lead one of her best friends to Christ, a catholic friend that was asking questions about god, from us.  My wife didn’t wish to answer her questions thinking her friend might be offended.  I told her just trust God.  A long story short after she joined us for a few bible studies during the week , my wife’s friend is now on fire for the Lord and actually tries to teach us.  Can you imagine that!  

    Now all my daughter’s friends are christians because she wants to “be yoked” the same.  We still have to remind her once in a while though.

    I can honestly say as looking back this was the best thing we ever did, to leave church to get closer to God.  My daughter told me about six months ago, proudly, that she learns more in one Sunday from her pastor Daddy then she learned going to church for a whole year.  My wife chimed in “I agree.”  I took this as a big complement.  I was jutting my chest out like a rooster.  I would not recommend this to everyone though, I was lucky, I had attended two different christian universities taking basic courses such as Old Testament survey.

    So we have church every Sunday at the kitchen table and I believe this is now where God is calling the church, to leave church to begin church again.   We have learned more in the last two years than it would take going to church for twenty years.  How many of you believe we are the last generation, hugh?  Well, if you believe we are the last generation then that means the tribulation saints will go underground during tribulation.  Maybe the church is now being called out of the church buildings,  the buildings some people might say are the buildings of the pharisees.  Just a thought….

  • ryc intheson: You have hijacked nothing and in my undertanding, see a bigger picture that is focused on what Christ was focused on….loving God and loving people.

    ryc RobertLeeRE: Thank you for sharing your comments. I am sorry that you have not been able to find a community of Christ followers in which to belong or that meets your standard. I do not say this in a negative way. I truly am sorry that your experiences have been what they are. At the same time, I, like you, can only give information that is subjective, based on my experiences. I understand and can appreciate that you must do what you feel you must do. May God bless you in your journey.

  • The amazing thing is that it has actually turned into an amazing blessing.  What was once struggle became spiritual growth.  What was dry bread became manna in the wilderness.  Anyways this was my story, how church became for my family.  I am really glad you did not misunderstand.  Sometimes people misunderstand when your experienc is different then theirs.  I think many people are that way sometimes.

  • Interesting thoughts. Just asking the question, would you say then that you believe that a community of followers that meets (and is not a “blood” family unit) cannot be kingdom focused?

    Jan, I just realized I never answered your question above.  No, but I can only give you what I have experienced, as subjective as it is.  I can only say I have met many like me everywhere on the internet, that have church at home with fellow believers, that lack absolutely nothing in spiritual growth.  I am not sure where this is all leading to be honest with you, but I do believe it is a huge spiritual movement and upheaval of the powers to be at this time.  It does appear though that the word church is being redefined by the masses.   The first churches were all cell churches that never met in buildings, that always met in homes.

    I do believe this is where the church is going.  Somehow it seems the definition of church is changing kind of like the definition of media changed when the internet came out.  Just one man’s thoughts…

  • To Intheson above,

                                 I just don’t see any of the pastors teaching from the bible.  A lot of people that appear they are doing something but are doing nothing.  And as far as the down trodden and ghetto people here downtown, the church pretty much ignores them anyways.  I didnt say the father pastor would not consider prior theologians discourse, only that he would give it little weight in compared to the actual reading of scripture, actual interpretation of scripture via the Holy Spirit.  Now here are some questions for you:  Are you saying it is wrong to trust the Holy Spirit.  If you believe there is the Holy Spirit why not act on your belief?  Are you saying people of less stature and economics are less capable of spiritual growth and teaching their families about God?  Christ didn’t think so and most of those Christ ate with and hung out with were the downtrodden, poverty stricken and outcasts of society.  Are you saying only the educated are capable of spiritual truth?  Your logic is faulty.  The church experienced it’s greatest growth ever during the first three hundred years when most churches were in the homes and most groups had many spiritual leaders within a group.  Also, do you not know where God is taking the church today?  Haven’t you heard it was like this in the very beginning?  Don’t you know that God gave us all bibles?  Why do you think God gave them to us, to let a pastor tell us what we should and should not read?  You act like you know so much about God, anybody can quote scripture, but don’t you know that God is slowly teaching man to each be responsable for their own individual housholds?  Don’t you know that if history teaches us anything it is that all prior theologians are almost always wrong.  I have no desire to follow techings of man anymore.  As for me and my houshold, we will read God’s words always and serve the Lord! 

  • RobertLeeRE

    I don’t really want to get into a big argument about this as I think that would be divisive and what we need right now is unity within the body of Christ. However I think you have misunderstood my comments. To answer some of your questions: 

    No follower of Jesus (I count myself in that number) can ever the deny the power of the Holy Spirit.

    Jesus’ ministry was out in the community at all levels with tax collectors, in the hard areas, in poverty, with down and outs, prostitutes. He spent time around the table with his disciples and sent them OUT.

    You are right the church did develop through house groups and those still exist today. However I doubt they were single family house groups – I think they would be much more community based fellowships.

    God did not give us bibles! God gave us his Word which was for years related by word of mouth, by story telling like Jesus did. People could not read, did not have access to manuscripts. In a community there may have been only one manuscript available. OK, now we have the luxury of a personal Bible. BUT how do you reach the lost in our communities – do you simply give them a bible and say get on with it – some may not even be able to read it let alone interpret what it means.

    I am sure that no pastor has ever told you what you should or should not read in the Bible.

    Your statement that you have “no desire to follow teachings of man anymore.” simply astounds me. Jesus was a man – fully human – Are you saying that you are not going to follow his teachings? When you were a child did you not have a teacher? Now you are grown up are you saying that you know everything there is to know? We are all children of God – the Bible is full of teachers of God’s word. Jesus chose the disciples to be the teachers with and after him.

    Robert I get the feeling that you are really searching but closing yourself off from the body of Christ, from fellowship and real community will not help you find what you are searching for. I work every day in a Christian Restaurant and Resource Centre and I see hundreds of people every week who are searching about    life. Some are mature Christians, some are new Christians, some are seakers, some have never ever heard of Jesus. They are all the children of God and the community and fellowship that we offer, round a table over food etc. Robert, the kitchen table is fine but God has a bigger table for you to feed at.

    I pray that you find it soon.

  • I am sorry!  Your statement that God did not give us the bible or the word of God sounds like the closest think to heresy I have heard in a long time!  And you think your a teacher?  You do not even know where truth comes from.  How can you teach truth when think the bible is falliable and came from man?  Your claim that God did not give us bibles goes against all accepted christian doctrine!  So are you saying it was never God’s intention to give us bibles so we can check and make sure pastors and bishops and priests are telling us the truth or not?  I think your teaching is nonscriptural!  You are also ignorant of history.  Don’t you know that going way back before Christ they were writing things down on the scrolls?  It was God’s intention from the very beginning for mankind to have a written word so that each man could teach himself and not rely on some false teacher somewhere that chose to not do a sermon on Paul’s Letters because of the teaching against mosaic laws like tithing, True Sabbath days, what you eat and festival celebrations.  Oh but the pastors and teachers and priests and bishops all hated that because they couldn’t manipulate the truth.  They couldn’t sell indulgences and twist and pervert the word of God.

    You are so legalistic.  I wonder if people can even find God when you are attempting to lead them.  I get plenty of community going out and ministering to people I meet.  God uses me to minister to people all the time.  I think if what you are doing is what the Holy Spirit is leading you to do, fine.  Good for you.  But don’t judge me because the Holy Spirit leads me in a different direction.

  • ryc’s RobertLeeRE: Forgive me for saying so, but I believe that you are completely misunderstanding the comments made here. Intheson was not saying that God did not give us His Word’s which we now call the Bible. Keep in mind that in Jesus day there was no New Testament. It was as intheson says…..oral and was written down after Christ death.

    – I find very interesting debates about the Holy Spirit leading the interpretation of Scripture. Look at the statement. “I didn’t say the father pastor would not consider prior theologians discourse, only that he would give it little weight in compared to the actual reading of scripture, actual interpretation of scripture via the Holy Spirit.”    This is “assuming” that prior theologians were not touched by the Holy Spirit in their interpretation. That’s a pretty big assumption to make. I applaud anyone that feels they need to read the Scripture themselves and not just rely on someone else’s interpretation. I also certainly agree that we should never take one interpretation at face value, we should read ourselves, we should do what the Rabbi’s in Jesus day did (and Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi)…we should wrestle with Scripture, talk about it, ask questions…indeed, in the 1st century world…it was all about the asking of questions and wrestling with Scripture (this is Hebrew thinking) as opposed to knowing all the answers and having the answers) this is Greek thinking. Noticed that Jesus generally answered questions with questions.

    Robert, I respect your decision to “do church” as a family unit. There is nothing essentially wrong with that other than I have seen no biblical precedence for that in Scripture. Indeed, the Greek word for “Church” is “ekklesia” , which has it’s roots in the meaning “called out ones”. The word itself clearly means a gathering or assembly of citizens called out for a purpose. I would certainly entertain Scripture that would point to the fact that your “family church” is what God, indeed Jesus, intended. I am not at all saying that your home church is wrong. Only that it is not the only way and that other churches that meet in buildings (though I believe your’s does too, indeed, church in homes are in buildings.) ARE and can be fruitful in leading God’s children and affecting their communities thereby bringing the kingdom to this earth as Jesus taught so clearly in Scripture. I applaud you for leading your family spiritually. Please applaud us for passionately loving God and others also.

    You mention, “And as far as the down trodden and ghetto people here downtown, the church pretty much ignores them anyways.” This would be a perfect opportunity in following Christ and caring for the needs of these people. In your community of Richmond, Virginia, I find that the Second Baptist Church South & Greater Mount Moriah Baptist Church both are deeply involved in the homeless community, having fed Over 1,000,000 meals since 1987, that’s just the beginning…..). Woodlake United Methodist Church In Midlothian, (which I believe is near you) also has a meals for the homeless ministry. The point being, churches are involved.

    Please don’t take my thoughts and comments wrong. However, we are not attacking your choice of how you do church. We are simply pointing out that there are other ways also and that there are questions in some of the statement you have made. I would appreciate you not attacking our passion and our leading by the Holy Spirit in reaching out to vast communities of people and bringing the Gospel message to those who are seeking, and those who do not know God, and those who are on a path to finding His truths in their lives.

    Again, I say, may God bless you in your journey.

  • I have also seen how little these ministries do for the spiritual growth of the downtown area.  They make everybody sign in so they treat the people they feed as income producers.  They do not hand out tracts nor are they concerned at all for the spiritual growth of those that eat their food.  Essentially they are not fulfilling the mission of the gospel because they do not preach the gospel.  The so called homeless they help are actually alcoholics and drug addicts that are mostly committing fraud on the American Social welfare system.  Essentially these churches have been putting all the businesses downtown out of business just so they can run their church business.  Many of these business owners are christians, fellow brothers and sisters, that lose their life savings because some churches have mixed communism and socialism with the gospel. 

    They make everyone sign in, count the list, use that as an excuse to get funds from United Way and other government grants.  They also use that as a reason to get more donations from the congregants.  They do not actually teach the gospel nor do they hand out tracts. 

    So you named two out of ten thousand churches here in the Metro area that in my opinion have actually increased the homeless problem since they started.  All people pretending to do something but when you look closer not really doing anything at all. 

    Nothing more than taking people’s dignity by giving them handouts if they go and stand in front of this church or that church so everybody in the city can say “oh this church is so Godly.” or say “Look at how many people that church is feeding.”  Then drug addicts, convicts and alcoholics all over the East Coast want to come to Richmond, Virginia because of all the churches that hand out the free food. 

    All revival starts in the family, all revival starts in the home, by the reading of God’s scriptures, to find out how the church got so far off track, and failed mankind just like the pharissees and Sadducees did.  All legalism, the blind leading the blind!

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