January 6, 2007

  • My friends James (lostFrog) and Debra (SteveDebra) are having a conversation  (one and two) that I just find irresistible. In just had to share my thoughts here because I want to hear your thoughts. 

    What is Church?

    This is Part 1

    Some other friends and I, Ginny (SimplyBridges) and Jim (JimRogers) (that bring us that fabulous Imago Coffee!) were also talking about “what church is”. It is not always easy to put into words. And the key is……..something that can be put into words and also put into action.

    Debra, I like very much what you said……church is a place to come together to get refuled. I simply believe that a church should be a community of followers (followers of Jesus) more than a community of believers (believers in Jesus Christ). If we are a community of followers……we’re a community of believers by default…..because everything we do should be centered on Jesus. We are people who are passionately dependent upon God in worship and prayer all week long.

    This community comes together weekly as a body to Praise and Worship God and to teach and encourage each other and….to get refuled….to then go out and simply “live” ministry through our interactions with others in daily life. Then they go on throughout the week in home churches and Bible studies, and groups of people doing “like” things….living the Truth.

    A church is a gathering of people who immerse themselves in the ways of God…….to worship and love the Most Holy……..to pray…….. to celebrate what Jesus is doing in their lives and their world so that they can LEAVE………yes…I believe that we come to church so that we can LEAVE……so that we can GO OUT and meet people where they are, so that we can GO OUT and share our lives with others, thereby sharing what we hold most dear, our relationship with Christ, with others. 

    I believe that as we see a shift from “consumer church” to “mission oriented life” that we will see people gathering together for something much greater than ourselves. What I find most refreshing and moving in God like ways, is that as we change our attitude….we actually attain what we sought in the beginning. What I mean is, when we decide not to come to the church gathering “to simply be filled”, but to come to “refuel and fill” then we find that we are filled.

    As God’s children, we are called to gather together in love and fellowship, but ultimately we are called to disperse and to reach out in love to all those around us….. in our homes, work places, schools and communities…and even the world. We are called to go out into that world to share the love that we have so graciously received through our Lord Jesus Christ.

    I like tremendously that Debra said, “I went to church to get fed and refueled but did not participate in other ‘church’ ministries because of my full time occupation” (Debra works at the Sanford Crisis Pregnancy Center in town). I believe that is awesome and also important to understand. Some people are called by God to serve at church, some in their community and some within the church community of people and some both. That’s the beauty of it…all are following…not just believing. Serving as a result of the opportunities God has provided, serving as a “calling”…..not just an obligation. No one should feel guilty because they are doing what God called them to do and maybe it isn’t what “man” called us to do.

    I see “church” (the community of followers and believers) and “ministry” to be almost synomonous. We have Loretta who has the gift of loving animals….she naturally helps us all with our pets. Some people are really good with kids….and this is what they do, they lead our youth (thank you Steve, Dave and Todd and many others). Some have a passion for the unborn…thank you Debra and Laura and Andrea! Some have a passion for music…thank you Phil, Gregario, Joel and Joey and Steve. Some have a passion for art, thank you Nancy. Some have a passion for teaching, thank you Phil again and thank you Steve. Some work well with tools and I see them all the time using those skills to help others…thank you James, Chuck and Greg….and on and on and on…..I have left out so many people, you get the idea….but they are there….passionatly following in the way that God has led them. “Church” is a place that we encourage each other to always be “open and available to be used by God at any time, any place”. “Life” is worship and “life” is ministry……..”Church” is a community of these believers that see it this way and who long to live this way. (organic, missional, community focused)

    Church is a community of people in dialog with each other about Jesus, about God, about the Bible, about life. Dialogs are conversations that are open…not closed. (engaging and authentic)

    Church is a community of people…a community of diverse people…and this diversity is celebrated….because God so obviously celebrates this diversity….look at us…we’re all different and special. (ecumenical)

    Church is a community of people that encourage and teach each other the ways and the wisdom of Jesus, indeed…God. Not out of a “legalistic belief”….but out of the joy of obedience, truth, fullfillment and love. A community where the pastors and leaders equip people for the mission and to serve one another.(discipling, Christ centered)

    One of the hardest things I sometimes find to articulate is being a part of something that is “bigger than ourselves” (because GOD and His kingdom is certainly so much “bigger than ourselves”. Church is a community of people that are outward focused, concerned with the “Big C”. I like to call this “kingdom focused”. I believe that “church” is simply a small community of followers and believers that are a part of, and make discisions, based on God’s larger kingdom rather than simply our “small community”. I believe deeply that God will take care of the little “c” if we stay focused on the big “C”. Thank you “School of Fish“, thank you “Imago Coffee“, thank you Jason Rewis, thank you Andrea and Dave at SCPC, and thank you “BaldWorshipLeader“. (Big ‘C’ focused, missional)

    Church is a community of followers and believers that looks from the outside like the people on the inside (not like some other church or program somewhere else). (authentic, organic)

    Church is a community of people in which each persons “gift” is celebrated. (creative, organic)

    And finally…….I believe that church is a community of believers and followers that are on a journey…….together…and with God……learning to follow (thank you Jason).

    Please, please……tell me what you think….

Comments (40)

  • I would tend to agree.  Church is all of those things.  I believe it is also a sancturary, an oasis of light in a world that has been decieved by darkness. 

  • ryc TheologiansBlog: Oh yes I certainly agreee! Thank you for adding to the conversation. “An oasis of light in a world that has been deceived by darkness”. Oh, how I want for our churches to be exactly this! God bless you my friend!

  • i think part of my questioning has to do w/ the fact that sunday church is about refilling and relating and encouraging and many different things, but the way most churches do this leaves so much out of the equation..we sing for awhile then maybe have 3 minutes of meet and greet to talk to someone we havnen’t seen in 6 days, then we sing some more or listen to a special song then a teacher talks to us for a half hour and we sing a song and leave (if it’s old school, there’s an invitation)….if the church has sunday school, we relate more in that….I always thought church should be more like a sunday school class where we could relate and share and learn….maybe we lost that at some point along the way hundreds of years ago when they built the first cathedral….i like the way some churches do it where it lasts most of the day and there’s food involved…

  • ryc James: I agree! My thoughts are changing in some ways (from some time ago)…I would love to see Sundays extend into the afternoon with a noon meal, begin with small group teaching and be filled in the middle with singing, praise and worship. We need to get together and really talk about all this…DTS…..here we come….food….food is good…..

    So, since it’s obvious that  many churches leave so much out of the equation….let’s look at how we can put more back in the equation! Give me some ideas! Preach it to me!…..food……food is good

    My dream is not to “model ourselves” after other churches but just simply to “be ourselves”.

  • I have just begun reading and have to go do laundry, but I’ll write down my first thought:

    I absolutely love your distinction between a ‘community of believers’ and a ‘community of followers’ for so many reasons! One is that the followers are already committed, by their definition, to doing good works. And good works is where we seem to be lacking in the reformed  community right now. Charity, twelve step programs, community service, mentoring, visiting, teaching…all these things are our mission. But too often we define ourselves by what we believe, which of course is extremely important, but it’s not supposed to end there.

    Haven’t we all seen church communities that become more and more focussed on deciding doctrinal or worldview niceties, and consequently get more and more ingrown and inward focussed as the debates sharpen and egos are put on the line and everybody stakes their self-image on winning arguments or loudly defining themselves by their superior beliefs? Let’s just shake the cobwebs out and look around us and see that there is a world in need, and what are we doing about it?

  • I agree that church is a lot of different things and people come for different reasons and with different gifts.  One of my dear friends talks about how he is often filled with the holy spirit, but the bad thing is that he leaks.  So, the idea of a refilling station is a great one. 

    My favorite metaphor for church is a body.  A body has different parts that perform different functions. Some parts work much better than others.  The body is constantly changing as does a church.

    My personal obervations are that many people come into a church so empty that it may take them years to come to a point where they can fill others.  So, while remembering the big C is important, we are also serving the big C by just helping those in the little c.

  • I am out shopping with the grandkids today, but I do have some thoughts on this…I’ll fill that in later tonight, though….when I have a little more time

    c ya later, Jan….jim

  • yes a difference between the active and the passive. Belief in action or action in belief. Very well framed Jan. If we have no “feet in belief” than are “we just fed in the head” ?

    I also like the focus on consumer focus vs. mission oriented focus. We are saved as a people for a kingdom purpose, not being to build ivory towers that one goes in and out of with no noticable change (except perhaps hardening), but a transformation center, being transformed to where we are able to leave part of ourselves  “me” at church and allow more of “Him” to fill the spot left.

    I appreciated your kind comments and this is an excellent piece. Thanks for your kingdom service and making faith an active tense , rather than passive.  John

  • I’m not sure I’ll be able to put this into words very well yet but I’ll try.  I’m not sure I agree with the concept that the church is a filling station.  I believe that our filling (which I wouldn’t consider to be a refueling) comes from our connection to the Vine.  It’s this relationship with Christ the true vine that makes church organic (no pun intended).

    Everyone has this kind of individual relationship with Christ.  In the agricultural metaphor he’s the Vine.  In the biological metaphor he’s the Head.  In the marriage metaphor he’s the husband.  In the structural metaphor he’s the Chief Cornerstone.  It is because of him that we naturally and progressively take our form.

    I don’t think filling and refueling are the same because our abiding in Christ provides something that is complete, full and sufficient.  Now I would agree “refueling” needs to happen in the normal Christian life but that is because I have need of my mind being renewed and my focus being redirected.  A better collection of words for that would be repentance, forgiveness and returning to my first love.  Something more like acknowledging that I have not been abiding in Christ and through the conviction of the Holy Spirit I am changing my heart to seek first his kingdom and righteousness.

    Somehow there needs to be a distinction between the individual and the community.  The community is not together to accomplish the things which an individual should be accomplishing on his/her own.  Likewise an individual should not be trying to accomplish those things which are to be done in community.  I believe we have whole churches formed off of what should organically be called an individual’s responsibility.  I also believe we have individuals taking on the responsibilities of the community because that is what he’s paid to do.

    Is what happens at the corporate level just more of the same at what is happening at the individual level?  Or is the corporate gathering for something essentially different?

    I do like how you have said that it should be a community of followers of Jesus Christ.  Jesus said he would build the church.  He didn’t ask us to build.  (Matthew 16:18)  Ekkelsia is the greek word for church and simply is a variation of the world kaleo which means to call.  The important question to ask is what has been that call of God upon his people from the beginning?  Our job is to make disciples (followers of Christ’s teachings) and through Christ’s call the church gathers.  If I’m committed to being a fully devoted follower of Christ, I will be experiencing that call of God upon my life and as a disciple I will follow.  It [God's call] will be a call to himself, a call to others, and a call to the rest of His creation.  N.T. Wright says that this call deals with things like justice, spirituality, relationship, and beauty in his book Simple Christian.  That book was a solid read if you’re interested.

    I have begun to tell the congregation I lead worship for that, “The worship has only just begun, and the real service starts as you leave the doors.”  I believe that with all my heart – we’re there to equip them to do the work of the ministry.  The ministry is not what is accomplished within the walls of the church but what those who gather within the walls of the building purpose to do based on the call of Christ as found in the Scriptures.

    I could write more and I’m sure I barely covered what was the content of your post but these are a few of my thoughts on what the church is.

  • Happy New Year, Jan

    What is Church? – as requsted, some thoughts from across the pond.

    In the UK if you asked most ‘unchurched’ people ‘what is church’, they would probably identify it with a building not a group of people. Why is that? Why do they get that impression? Is it because for far too long the ‘instutionalised’ church has hidden inside the box? Far too often those on the outside feel that it is unwelcoming, its ‘rituals’ are outdated, and more worryingly, its ‘members’ give the impression of being better people, ‘holier than thou’, but don’t live up to it in the real world. Religion has hijacked the church Jesus gave us! The Church’s apparent lack of relevance to the 21stC is why more people are leaving ‘church’ than joining in.

    This all sounds very negative, but I am glad to say that there are good things going on to address these issues.

    The church should be about people, about a lifestyle of following Jesus; about having the faith to journey with him; about having HIS faith. He believed in his Father, even though it cost him his life. We need HIS faith, and we need to be prepared to get out where it is all happening, where it hurts or is dangerous. Jesus did not hide himself away. It is amazing that we can send people out on mission to places like Africa, India, China etc, (all very good), but we cannot see the ‘log in our own eye’. Often because our church ‘supports’ this kind of foreign mission we think we are part of it without any real cost (other than a fiancial one, that most of us can afford anyhow). If we are truly followers of Jesus we must be missional people, and we need to use whatever gift we have been given to reach out in our communities, in faith, hope and love. Whether that is teaching, cleaning, working with old people, creating things whatever. If we are using our gifts for the benefit of the community we are witnessing, and if an when we get the opportunity to verbally speak about our faith we must do it. Far too often we back off at this point! People need to know about Jesus, not in a ‘preaching’ way, but in a real life way to which they can relate.  If they see us living in faith, hope and love, it has to have an impact. 

    For far too long we have gone to church to feel holy and be fed on Sunday and then left it all in church there when we go home, spending the rest of the week on our own journey instead of God’s. The comment about going to church to be refuelled is fine as long as that refuelling leads to our engines running throughout the week. Driving our journey with Jesus in whatever we do, wherever we are. You are spot on with your comment, “‘Church’ is a place that we encourage each other to always be “open and available to be used by God at any time, any place“. “Life” is worship and “life” is ministry……..”Church” is a community of these believers that see it this way and who long to live this way. (organic, missional, community focused).”

    My only reservation is with the words ‘long’ to live this way’. To me longing suggests something in the future. Why not take the word ‘long’ out and live it right NOW as ‘a community of  believers who to live this way. (organic, missional, community focused).”

    Hope I’ve not gone on too ‘long’!

  • ryc Mrs Darcy: I appreciate your thoughts here: “Charity, twelve step programs, community service, mentoring, visiting, teaching…all these things are our mission. But too often we define ourselves by what we believe, which of course is extremely important, but it’s not supposed to end there.” Additionally, you used those words, “self-image”, “ego”, “winning arguments”, “Loudly defining”, and “superior beliefs”. I agree……these are all things that if we do not keep in check by learning humility and adopting the servant heart that Jesus spent so much time and wisdom sharing with us in the Scriptures…..then we become inward focused and ingrown…….judgmental and just plain full of ourselves. We then start following ourselves rather than Christ. Thank you for the great insight!

    ryc Ron: Yes…we all leak That’s a good illustration. It’s funny, I didn’t exactly mean to make it sound like church was simply a filling station. Of course, I think everyone understands that it is more than that. I appreciate your metaphor of the body…it is very true..but what I appreciate most is your observation: “My personal observations are that many people come into a church so empty that it may take them years to come to a point where they can fill others.  So, while remembering the big C is important, we are also serving the big C by just helping those in the little c.” I have seen the same thing. We are all on a different place in our walk with Christ. We must always understand that and respect that.

    ryc John (uprisingyouth): “If we have no “feet in belief” than are “we just fed in the head” ?”…good question….I think if we temper this question a little with the knowledge that Ron brought to the table, the knowledge that some “people come into a church so empty that it may take them years to come to a point where they can fill others”….then we will see what you so eloquently described next……..transformation. I especially appreciate your thoughts:, “We are saved as a people for a kingdom purpose, not being to build ivory towers that one goes in and out of with no noticeable change (except perhaps hardening), but a transformation center, being transformed to where we are able to leave part of ourselves  “me” at church and allow more of “Him” to fill the spot left.” Very well said!

    ryc JC (WildernessChild): I appreciate your comments. I agree very much that “It’s this relationship with Christ the true vine that makes church organic”. I certainly do not want anyone to take my thoughts above as pointing to the “consumerism” that is so evident in many churches today. My main point in all of this revolves around  being a “community of followers (followers of Jesus) more than a community of believers (believers in Jesus Christ)”. Becoming a believer can happen almost overnight…becoming a Christ follower happens over time. That is where the “refueling” comes in. Jesus went to the synagogues to listen, to wrestle with Scripture…to teach….to participate in community. People grow in community (just like a family). Does this mean that a person can not grow on their own, outside of community? No…there are always exceptions to every rule, however…I believe that most people grow deeper through community.

    I like very much your statement, “The worship has only just begun, and the real service starts as you leave the doors.” That…..is the full thrust of what my post is all about. Concerning your thought that “ministry is not what is accomplished within the walls of the church but what those who gather within the walls of the building purpose to do based on the call of Christ as found in the Scriptures.”. I would point out that when someone is ill or in the hospital (inside the church) that it is just as important to minister to them…indeed…minister to each other…as it is to minister to those “outside” the church. Ministry happens both inside and outside the church. Our difference in thought may stem from our definitions of church. I do not see the church as having anything to do with a building or walls…but everything to with people…with community. Indeed…when Jesus used the word we translate as church (ekklesia) He had no thought of a building…as you so clearly note, “ekklesia” has it’s roots in the meaning “called out ones”. The word itself clearly means a gathering or assembly of citizens called out for a purpose. Since I see clearly that not all the people attending a church are “called out”…many are on a path, some are unbelievers, some are not sure, some are believers…… yet not followers…….I clearly see that ministry happens inside the community as well as outside the community we call “the church”.

    I appreciate your comments and thoughts We may seem to disagree in some areas (which is certainly okay ) but I think it is more semantics than anything else. I would certainly like to hear more

    ryc intheson: Thank you for your perspective Just like you mention in the UK, many people here in America, when asked the same question would have the same kind of answer. I must also agree with you about the word “long”. I certainly did not mean to imply that we should simply “long” to live this way. We should live it right NOW as ‘a community of  believers who to live this way. Thanks for the comment

    Thank you everyone for your comments and your thoughts. If you have more…please share them. May God bless each of you and know that I appreciate you!

  • The true meaning of church I believe can be summed up by two words; Pot Luck.  Believe it or not I have found Biblical president for Pot Luck’s, and we do not follow the scripture enough in this area I believe…
     
    If you take time to reminisce on the Pot Lucks of your youth, if you grew up around them, all the makings for the first century church were involved.  Everyone gave of what they had and came together to feed all who would come and partake.  Fellowship between those attending, true conversations requiring each person to share personally with another or a group.  Parents speaking to each other about their children and learning form each others experiences. Conversations and discussion (much like those conducted on blogg’s today…) about Christ, the Word, and its application to the world.  All this and we have not even touched on the preparation prior to showing up, and the family working together causing them to grow closer in preparation.  I could go on and on, but the best part is that without long winded sermons (except the preacher’s prayer before eating if he felt he went to short from the pulpit that morning) Christ was being taught, not by just words but by example and experience. 
     
    Along with this true experience of church, “the Pot Luck”, we all need to grow deeper in the Word whenever we can.  Sunday school as it were is an aspect that most Contemporary Church’s believe to be traditional and therefore it should avoided.  But reading in Act’s of Paul’s speaking and teaching to a group with them being so eager to learn that they stayed throughout the night and one even fell asleep and fell out a window.  I read what James wrote above and think to myself, where is the desire for the Word in American’s contemporary churches today.  Music worship is good, but I believe we put to much focus on the production elements and not enough attention and effort to the in-depth teaching of the Word and creating an environment that displays its importance. 
     
    Pot Luck’s and Sunday school, what a combination… Now that’s the church I want to find and take everyone I can with me. 
     
    Steve

  • ryc Steve: I really like the thought of “Pot Luck” ! In many ways it says the same thing I was trying to say above, just in different words. The Church is the people, not some show we put on that is music and preaching. I see nothing wrong with “the show” if it is the “people” passionately worshiping God through their creative and loving spirit. I have also come to believe that Sunday school is not such a bad thing. Maybe we could call it “Sunday morning community groups” and we wouldn’t sound so “traditional” (LOL). The point is, I believe also that people thirst for the Word. We should have as much teaching as possible available as God raises up teachers. Of course this is all aimed at introducing people to a relationship with Christ in which they will strike out on their own to learn and grow and live in His will apart from the church “feeding them”.

    The “pot luck” is so organic……everyone brings their gifts to the table. The church is who the people are. God bless you my friend. I am anxious this afternoon to mull over the great questions you have posed on your blog Right now I need to go….it’s almost 6am and the church doors are opening……

  • Oooh, I like this conversation! Unfortunately, I haven’t had the time to comment, and I still don’t, but I will get around to it! There’s definitely a mental shift going on here from the concept of “seeker-sensitive” church services to a more “authentic, scripture-based, refueling through fellowship and food” kind of thing. I must say I like it. I think a lot of little c churches struggle with where to draw the line between the two because as you said, Jan, “We are all on a different place in our walk with Christ.” Is Sunday church about pleasing those newcomers so they’ll stay, or about gaining our own strength in Him so we can go out and disciple? Seems like a lot of little c churches use “Sunday morning church” as a mission opportunity to newcomers and use small groups or communtity groups as refueling stations. Is this the way it should be? I’m not sure. Wish I could comment more now, but I will mull this over and comment later. Thanks Jan…and James for bringing this into conversation! Great post!!

  • i’ve just scanned some of the posts, but i feel there are models in the bible for all the different types of gathering we associate with church and community….Jesus taught to the multitude, he met with his disciples in small group, they ate- of course….they fed others…..they studied together, prayed together….i agree in the concept of church as a filling station….even if simply as an expansion on or other relationships (any form of coming together to learn, share, worship, study, etc…) if you look at that as a definition, then there is a very broad spectrum to this church thing….i really think we do it a disservice in society today….but i think the fact that there should be no single definition or venue for “church” means that we cannot discount the efforts of others just because they don’t fit our expanded definitions….i think a lot of it is semantics we’ve attached to segments of our relations as a CHURCH. i think people have such a narrow concept of church because we as the Church have come do define ourselves that way….are we successful because we meet people’s needs and expectations? certainly we are, but what defines their expectations? people are drawn to churches for numerous reasons today, but i think most of them are looking for a place to engage relationally and have their needs met, one of which is relationships. I have to go bathe my dog…Emma says hello!

    p.s. is there a biblical model for a mega church? (kind of hard to have 3000 people meet in someone’s home or even the temple to sit with a rabbi. not that there’s anything wrong w/ today’s mega churches (is there?), but they definitely build certain expectations of how a church should function…and meet some specific needs in or consumer driven society.

    gotta go, the dog stinks pretty bad……

  • yes, i know Jesus taught to thousands at a time, but they didn’t all keep meeting together every week en masse.

  • What a great discussion…thanks so much, Jan and everybody.

    When I think of church, I can’t help but think about the opportunities in creating environments where people are invested in to develop as leaders who are then prepared to grow and go…kind of a leadership replication process. This initially came to me while reading through Mark (1:16-18) and blogged on it back in September in a post titled, “Jesus’ call to be leaders.” An excerpt is:

    “As Jesus walked beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and his brother Andrew casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen. “Come, follow me,” Jesus said, “and I will make you fishers of men.” At once they left their nets and followed him. –Mark 1:16-18″

    Jesus actively engages the fishermen, in their context, to “come after me” with the promise that he will make them “fishers of men.” With this one sentence, I see Jesus giving a pretty clear picture of his intent to invest in, and then empower those that he has called to be first-hand witnesses, tell others about Jesus and what they have seen, and then as future leaders go out in the world and share Jesus’ message.

    I often contemplate Jesus as Messiah. This passage reminded me to contemplate Jesus as Leader. In Jesus, I see a leader that connected with people, where they were on the journey of life. I see a loving leader investing in people’s lives with teachings, parables, and real-life situations. In Jesus, I see an amazingly visionary leader that began his ministry calling leaders to come after him with the vision of preparing them to go, and make an impact on the world. (end excerpt)

    Having worked in the church for a few years, and then previous to that, volunteering in a church, I’ve seen and responded to the ministry needs of the church. While my contributions were appreciated, I can’t really say that I was invested in as a person to grow spiritually and then taught to develop others to lead after me. Most often, it’s been about accomplishing the task at hand, not much more.

    I believe we (or the church) could begin with meeting people where they’re at. Next I see the potential to encourage others to not only see their gifts and abilities, but claim our call as followers of Christ and use how God has uniquely wired each of us to influence and invest in others.

    I recently read an article in Inc. magazine where the author, F. Dao, asked the question if people” are conditioned not to lead.” Dao explains:

    “Almost everything we experience in life is based on a hierarchical structure. We’re given grades A-F and go from first grade to twelfth grade. Once we reach college, we become freshmen, sophomores, juniors, and seniors. In the workforce we’re given titles and pay grades that are designed to show our level and importance. For the vast majority of us, all of this development happens without the opportunity to ever really assume a true position of leadership. After so many years of conditioning to be role players, the challenge isn’t to teach people what makes good leaders, but to break them of the programming that has convinced them they are not fit to be leaders.”

    What about the church? How many look to only a few ‘leaders’ to lead the church with the majority of the church community waiting to see what happens. How many of us consider ourselves as leaders and see our ‘call to ministry’ as a call to make ‘fishers’ of men and women?

  • i think part of the dilemma is that most christians today don’t feel the authority to simply talk to someone and tell them that we’ve got something better….we don’t feel the excitement of living on the edge as a follower of Jesus. (speaking only from conjecture) we feel so far removed from the whole messiah experience that becoming a follower of Jesus isn’t seen as all that great of a leap for a lot of people or all that attractive for others….He drew people to him because of who he was and sometimes i think we’re not enough like him to do the same…I speak only for myself…..I think a lot of christians today are out of touch w/ their center….

  • ryc Laura (beachgirl): Isn’t there a way we can have both…the “seeker-sensitive” church as well as a more “authentic, scripture-based, refueling through fellowship and food” church? I really like the food…… What I have seen often at LifePoint is that we, as “seeker sensitive” do well at getting people “in” as well as started in a relationship with Christ…..but then it seems to almost stop there (often, unless people are involved in a community group during the week). How can we have our cake and eat it too? If I had to make a choice, I guess I would have to go with being “about gaining our own strength in Him so we can go out and disciple? ” The community group thing is important…. and great…however….I often see that many people (for a variety of reasons) just don’t get involved that way. I would like to see a Sunday morning or Sunday evening “community group” meeting at the church focused on discipleship. I think many people that would not go to a “weekly weekday evening” community group would go to a Sunday one. What do you think? Thank you for your thoughts and for adding to the discussion!

    ryc James (iamthelostfrog): I agree that some things here are just a matter of semantics. We should get over the semantics and look at the root of things I like what you said, “i think most of them are looking for a place to engage relationally and have their needs met, one of which is relationships”. Now some may say, “but that’s not the purpose of church! Church is to come to worship God!”. However, Jesus made it very clear in Matthew that the most important things to God are that we love Him and that we love each other. Hello…..that’s relationship. Great thoughts on the mega church. I sometimes wonder……I’m not sure I would want to belong to a mega-church. I never have….what’s it like?

    ryc Ginny (simplybridges): I appreciate your thought very much, “I can’t help but think about the opportunities in creating environments where people are invested in to develop as leaders who are then prepared to grow and go…”.

    Ypou also said, “Having worked in the church for a few years,…..I can’t really say that I was invested in as a person to grow spiritually and then taught to develop others to lead after me. Most often, it’s been about accomplishing the task at hand, not much more.” I agree very much that we have a responsibility that we often do not fulfill. We must invest in our staff!

    Your words are very wise: “I believe we (or the church) could begin with meeting people where they’re at. Next I see the potential to encourage others to not only see their gifts and abilities, but claim our call as followers of Christ and use how God has uniquely wired each of us to influence and invest in others. ”

    James, Laura and Ginny, thank you so much for adding to the conversation!

  • rylc James (iamthelostfrog): My hope would be that our community of followers and believers would be a community that could help foster the fire of which you speak. Thank you so much for this great conversation!

  • jan, this was great: “Jesus made it very clear in Matthew that the most important things to God are that we love Him and that we love each other. Hello…..that’s relationship.”

    love is what gives everything context…investing in others has no context without love and compassion.

  • Wow this is moving so fast, hard to gather my thoughts before the train leaves the station! Excellent post and ongoing conversation. At some point a “paper” should be compiled from all this great discussion and idea sharing. Jan you hit on a great topic.

    My journey with the church has taught me the that the church is the right place for learning the message and mission of Jesus Christ. At some point we come to understand we have a role and some responsibility in this mission…”to go.” The action part you mentioned at the very beginning of your post.

    This part is the hardest. As you and others have mentioned, the community of “followers” is vital part of the process of being discipled, understanding scripture and learning to live in community, which itself can be a difficult paradigm shift.

    But the call to action, outward action, is part of the church that we have spoken of. So what does leaving look like? How do people who want to leave make this transition? How do leaders who have a call for something more then just a few hours on Sunday morning develop their full capacity within a ministry context after they “leave?”

    I think as we move the church from a location where a body of believers come together, we’ll need to think and act differently toward this new paradigm. A paradigm of movement that grows, develops, includes the new folks, provides training and development for developing leaders, allows and encourages people to use their gifts, passions and talents in ministry and most of all conveys the salvation message through action more then words that reflects the character of God in all that we do. This will require a vision of moving out versus getting bigger, a vision of investment in people versus investment in buildings, a vision of theological training for all members within the church versus what may or may not be happening in this regard at the moment. The difference is that the vision means for all to go, to leave and to go and do likewise.

    Those who get this message will need learn the message, scripture, history and theology to the best of their ability, they will need to mentor another in this same understanding, and they will need to learn to be a leader, either as learnignt he pastor, elder or board member’s role, or creating a leadership opportunity to meet a need for people out in the world.

    Jan this has been a great discussion starter. Sorry it took so long to catch the train, but it has gotten many of us all thinking about the same thing and about making a difference.

  • ryc Jim Thank you for your comments I will have to compile a paper of all the details of this conversation. Many people from many backgrounds have commented. You asked: “So what does leaving look like?” Please understand that when I spoke of “leaving” in my post, I was not speaking of leaving the church community, but of leaving on Sunday to go out into the world during the week. What I have experienced is people gathering together on Sunday tom praise, worship and “refuel” and then going out into the community during the week and serving in different ways……ministering to the elderly, helping their neighbors (both inside and outside the community of believers), feeding the homless, taking care of animals, volunteering at the hospital, volunteering with youth, leading weekly Bible studies, selling coffee…..you name it. That’s a glimps of what it looks like.

    You mention, “This will require a vision of moving out versus getting bigger a vision of investment in people versus investment in buildings, a vision of theological training for all members within the church versus what may or may not be happening in this regard at the moment “. I agree. We should invest in people, we should focus on teaching the ways of God. I believe that we must also always remember that everyone is in a different place in their walk, on their path. We make available…people must take the step. I believe that a fire grows. I also beleive that God can bless that which is done with a pure heart….loving God and loving others. I have a bit of a hard time with the “all” part…while this is ideal….I don’t see it as realistic….we are to lead…….people must make a choice to follow. I’m not disagreeing with you…I’m just fussing over semantics (LOL)

    Thank you for your contribution to the discussion God bless! Great coffee by the way!

  • To me church is a place that we gather together to read all of God’s holy words and discuss the truth of what they mean.  Without the extensive work required in reading the scriptures and determining truth we are like a sailship out on the ocean with no sail that is blown to and fro. 

    The sailship without the sail has a place to go but never gets there.  It has the appearance when you get on that your going somewhere, but the only place you go is nowhere. 

    Let us all get on ships with sails that go somewhere.  Let us avoid the ships that appear to go somewhere but do not.

    Let us all learn God’s words and forget the teacher’s words.  For the only thing that matters are God’s words and what they mean.

  • ryc Robert: I agree, this is certainly a part of church. God’s Words are central to the teaching. When we discuss the truth of what they mean we must also be willing to obey, follow and live in  the way that God’s Word’s, indeed, Jesus, has illuminated God bless!

  • As you said Jan, leaving isn’t actually “leaving,” but…going. I never thought you meant leaving the church community :o ), and perhaps my typing did not keep up with my thoughts…niether of which are very fast!

    I like the ship metaphor from Robert’s comment. I think this captures a good picture of a church “movement.” Not only about a ship with sails that is going somewhere, but also in order to get somewhere, there must be guidance, influence, knowledge and skill. The people on the ship must be guiding and influencing the movement of the ship.

    This makes me think of a scene from the movie “Master and Commander” with Russel Crowe. Near the end of the movie Crowe, as the Captain of his ship, promotes his second in command to the rank of Captain. He sends the newly promoted Captain to command a recently captured enemy ship and sends him out on his mission.

    This would not have been possible with training, development, investment and an understanding that eventually there would come a time for sending out to go and do likewise. Throughout the movie there are many scenes where Crowe as Captain mentors and guides his crew as an investment in the future. A church can and should be doing the same.

    This discussion has prompted some new thoughts on accountability and developing people. I will post these ramblings on my JimRogers Xanga so as not to distract from this discussion.

    I am enjoying the conversation!

  • My friend and, Andrea emailed me and gave me permission to share her comments in this conversation:

    Wanted to respond to your blog…but I forgot my password.  It’s been six months since I’ve been on!  Anyway…here are my thoughts (for whatever they’re worth!)

    I would agree with Debra…church is about “refueling”!!  We are all assigned a mission field trip, and it’s the one were on from Monday thru Saturday. Whether you’re in ministry or doing secular work…..if you’re doing IT for the Lord…its’s ministry!  I see church as my place to run to after a week on the field.  Kinda like when you were a little kid getting off the school bus, you ran home, couldn’t wait to see your family, tell’em about your day, hear about theirs, eat some cookies and milk, play, rest and get ready for the next day.  It was the safest place to be.  You were loved, accepted, corrected, affirmed and encouraged for the next day. Church is that for me.  I can’t to get there…TO encourage others and BE encouraged by those folks getting on the “SAME” bus the next day!  Not only am I “refueling” my faith, I’m being equipped to serve on the field.    love, Andrea   

  • I also think that many people today get the purpose of the universal church mixed up with the local church mixed up with specific activities/ministries. For example, we all believe that we are to go to the ends of the earth and be all things to all people. But that is MOST effectively done when all the local churches are reaching their community with all that they have; in other words, a suburban community church needs to be open to the urban population while at the same time being driven to those within 3 miles of the church. Our attention needs to be on those in need of global social justice, but also needs to focus on those homeless people down the road…Furthermore, I believe the primary and overarching principle of the weekly gathering is worship/discipleship, not evangelism. Evangelism becomes the primary and overarching principle of the remaining times when the church is out in the community living lives full of grace. This is not to say that they cancel each other out, or that you can’t have a Sunday morning service geared toward evangelism…I would just assert that there are different roles for each.

    This is something I have been wrestling with for quite a while – don’t know if it came out clear as mud in this xanga post or not – hopefully a little better than that.

    As always, I am enjoying Laleo Cafe.

  • Jan…

    What I meant regarding “inside the church walls” was not within the body or outside the body but what that body does both when it is gathered within the walls or at other times.  And as you so clearly noted this would include those who are sick and not gathered.

    Just a thought from this morning.  The church is a gathering of those who are seeking first the kingdom of God with a desire to obey all that they are being called to do.

  • Wow, this conversation has moved on since I last visited, with some great discussion. Here’s just a few more thoughts from over my side!

    Yesterday at ‘church’ we started a theme for the new year on ‘God’s calling’. We looked at two passages, Jonah 1 – 3  and Luke 5:27-32 (The calling of Levi). The one intially disobeys God and has a relationship with a ‘big fish’ for a few days to make him come to his senses, the other is a wealthy man who, immediately he is called by Jesus, leaves everything, his wealth, his stature in society  etc and follows – and then has a big party!
     
    In our new theme this weekend I think the most important part was emphasised. Following. There’s an old gambling phrase, ‘you’ve got to be in it to win it’, and although God loves each one of his unique creations, we have to respond to his love for it to be fulfilled. (Check out Soul Cravings by Erwin McManus ).
     
    Church is about people, (followers of Jesus), who seak and read, and then act on God’s Word. Love God and Love your neighbour (that’s not just the folks next door!), as yourself. Church can be a gathering as small as two (“For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them.” Matthew 18:20) or a gathering of 1000′s. Jesus taught both types of group. All the followers of Jesus are His ‘church’.
     
    So really church is about community. A relationship between God and you and me (us) and those who don’t yet know Jesus (YET).  Interacting together in two ways.
    1. In small groups and larger groups, over coffee,  in Sunday School, on Sunday morning etc, to learn about his word, to discuss, to worship and pray.
    2. On our journey of following Jesus as truthfully and as authentically as we can (we will never always get it right), in our everyday lives so that all those who come into contact with us are affected by the faith, hope and love that we have.
     
    The last song that we sang on Sunday was the one below. I hope that you don’t mind me taking up so much space with it but it says at lot.   God is asking you and me to follow him, and telling us what that entails. The last verse should be our response. 
     
    WILL YOU COME AND FOLLOW ME
    If I but call your name?
    Will you go where you don’t know
    And never be the same?
    Will you let My love be shown,
    Will you let My name be known,
    Will you let My life be grown in you,
    And you in Me?
     
    Will you leave yourself behind
    If I but call your name?
    Will you care for cruel and kind
    And never be the same?
    Will you risk the hostile stare,
    Should your life attract or scare?
    Will you let Me answer prayer
    In you and you in Me?
     
    Will you let the blinded see
    If I but call your name?
    Will you set the prisoners free
    And never be the same?
    Will you kiss the leper clean,
    And do such as this unseen,
    And admit to what I mean
    In you and you in Me?
     
    Will you love the ‘you’ you hide
    If I but call your name?
    Will you quell the fear inside
    And never be the same?
    Will you use the faith you’ve found
    To reshape the world around,
    Through My sight and touch and sound
    In you and you in Me?
     
    Lord, Your summons echoes true
    When You but call my name.
    Let me turn and follow You
    And never be the same.
    In Your company I’ll go
    Where Your love and footsteps show;
    Thus I’ll move and live and grow
    In You and You in me.
     
    Graham Maule & John L. Bell. Copyright © 1987 WGRG, Iona Community.

     

  • without being too wordy as Christians we call ourselves deciples of Christ. The Deciples were sent out by Christ key word being sent out. 15 And then he told them, “Go into all the world and preach the Good News to everyone. Mark 16:15. Jesus calls us as his deciples to go and minister to others however it might be. That is the ministry portion.

    But being on the ministry side myself I know how taxing it can be. I need my church family to support me or I would have givin up along time ago.

    When I am stressed out or frustrated it is my community of believers that keep me going. There is a firm distinction between the two. If I am having all ministry and no Church (relationship with those who can build me up) Ministry no longer becomes the work of god it becomes a burdon. At least in my life and my mind. You need to have balance. That is why I believe that there were multiple deciples. They kept eachother going. Their friendship kept them strong.

    When Jesus preached he had thousands like James said but he had his core. Just like Lifepoint and any other church has. They have their core ministry teams that have to lean on eachother to get the job done. We can’t do it alone. We are the body.

  • ryc Jim (JimRogers): Yes, Roberts ship metaphor is well put “training, development, investment and an understanding “….I appreciate that you include “understanding”. When we train, develop, and invest in those around us, as we disciple them (and in turn, as we are discipled) it is important to “understand” and be “understood”. To often we try to mold people….which is much like placing a square peg in a round hole. But when we seek to understand people….we can fully help to realize their full potential. God bless!

    ryc yourheeps: Wow….I could not have said it better! “…..we all believe that we are to go to the ends of the earth and be all things to all people. But that is MOST effectively done when all the local churches are reaching their community with all that they have; in other words, a suburban community church needs to be open to the urban population while at the same time being driven to those within 3 miles of the church. ” Three cheers for also articulating so well, “I believe the primary and overarching principle of the weekly gathering is worship/discipleship, not evangelism. Evangelism becomes the primary and overarching principle of the remaining times when the church is out in the community living lives full of grace.” You are so right, evangelism is important and evangelism can and does happen at the local church level….however, what I hear you saying is that real evangelism happens when people leave those church doors and go out into the community. Thank you fo saying it so well!!!! God bless!

    ryc JC (WildernessChild): Did not mean to misunderstand you I agree so very much….”The church is a gathering of those who are seeking first the kingdom of God with a desire to obey all that they are being called to do.” This is the core of all that has coursing through my veins……God bless you my friend!

    ryc intheson: LET’S HAVE A PARTY !  “although God loves each one of his unique creations, we have to respond to his love for it to be fulfilled.” So true my friend! By the way, I just recently purchased “Souls Craving” by Erwin McManus but I haven’t had the opportunity to read it yet. I am anxous. Erwin has been a huge “mentor from afar” for me. His passion inpires me! You said, “Church is about people, (followers of Jesus), who seek and read, and then act on God’s Word.” YES, YES, YES! Great song by the way, “Will you use the faith you’ve found…To reshape the world around…..Through My sight and touch and sound….In you and you in Me?” Living in the kingdom…….God bless!

    ryc Stephanie (syager): You are so right! The support we give each othet through Christ helps us to live out that life that is bigger than us. “We are the body”….Thanks! God bless! 

  • Excellent thoughts all!

    I strongly feel that the best understanding of what church is comes to us from both Christ’s teachings in John’s Gospel (particularly John 15) and the Apostle Paul’s expression of the church as the body of Christ in both Romans 12 and 1 Corinthians 12.

    Although these sections are primarily metaphoric, I think that Christ and his Apostle are also pointing to something real. We are, if we are what my tradition calls the “True Kirk”, united with each other through the presence of God’s own Holy Spirit. The church is a living thing that includes us, empowers us, and sustains us.

    Thanks for asking for my input!

  • ryc Beloved_Spear: Thank you for joining the conversation. It does us all good to meditate on the Scriptures you mention above I believe also that Christ and the apostles were certainly pointing to something real. I agree very much that, “The church is a living thing that includes us, empowers us, and sustains us.” God bless!

  • aaah! ships!  :)   Fellow-ships! C.S. Lewis, I believe, had a way of describing our community as a fleet of ships, all of which must work well on their own (mast, rudder, etc, in working order) as well as hold in formation so as to all get to the same place together without ramming one into another. Of course, this would work best if they had a general idea of where they were going, or the right instruments to navigate by the stars…

    And food, food is very important. Who you eat with is who you can live with. Eating together reveals one of our most basic needs together – the need for sustinance and our weakness without it. Didn’t the early Christians have a long meal together, within which context they celebrated an early form of what we call the Eucharist?

    So, Christians eat together and we sail together. We are free to be vulnerable to each other because we trust one another, knowing that we all are imperfect, knowing that we all have different gifts for the sake of the world, and where one person drops the ball another is gifted to make the basket, be it speaking in tongues or sharing $20 to help someone cover a month’s rent.

    We also pray together. For ourselves, for each other, for our neighborhoods, for discernment, for our joys and sorrows, our hopes and uncertainties. One of my pastors here in Toledo likes to say of prayer that it does not change God’s mind, rather, God is always up to something and our prayer is to form us to better be involved in God’s work.

    Coming together congregationally (typically called ‘church’) also keeps us accountable. It forms us, because the faith and lives of the people around us are pretty heavy influences on our own decisions and lifestyles. We can confront each other, we can encourage each other, we can witness to each other about the places where God has surprised us, and awaken to awareness through others of where God is working. Plus, if we get completely left-field ideas about a Scripture passage, church *should be* a place where we feel empowered to share our interpretations and see them through each others’ lives and recognize the true from the bogus.

    My favorite part of gathering as church is the witnessing that happens, the life stories that are shared, hearing from week to week to year to year how people come to grow in their faith and grow more comfortable sharing it. That and singing in harmony. Music expresses so much that words alone fail to express. (It has been said that when you sing you pray twice.) And the history behind the shape of our community worship times, behind our liturgy, also connects us with so many gone before us for whom God has been ever faithful, as God will be with us. It is a time and place for a community to transcend time and place because followers of the Way have gathered and shared for ever so many generations, and the Scriptures we read together have been held in the hearts, minds, and oral traditions of such a great cloud of witnesses that even when we feel we have lost the power, as individuals or communaly, to continue on in our belief, the voices and prayers of the martyrs and the saints sustains us.

    The church is beautiful, broken, searching, and continually reforming and transforming and being transformed as She reveals God’s Kingdom in the world.

    ~sidenote: there’s going to be a conference on the church at Mars Hill in Grand Rapids, MI, on January 21-22, called “Isn’t She Beautiful”. I don’t yet know if it is full, but Rob Bell will be one of the main speakers, and the schedule of conversations looks like it will be a grand weekend.

  • ryc bloodrelative: Thank your for your contribution to the conversation. I would love to go to the “Isn’t She Beautiful” conference. I find Rob Bell’s thoughts and reflections on Scripture refreshing. Our Worship Pastor, Phil Ayres, attended Mard Hill in the beginning.

    You asked, “Didn’t the early Christians have a long meal together, within which context they celebrated an early form of what we call the Eucharist?” I thought you might find this interesting. It is a section from the Didache (The Didache is a short, sixteen brief chapter, manual of moral instruction and church practice considered for the Canon)

    “First, about the cup: “We thank you, our Father, for the holy vine of your boy David which you made known to us through your boy Jesus. Glory be to you for the age.

    Now about the broken loaf: “We thank you, our Father, for the life and the knowledge that you made known to us through your boy Jesus. Glory be to you for the age. Just as this broken loaf was scattered on top of the hills and as it was gathered together and became one, in the same way let your assembly be gathered together from the remotest parts of the land into your kingdom. “For yours is the glory and the power through Anointed Jesus for the age.” Now no one should either eat or drink from your thanksgiving meal, but those who have been baptized into the Lord’s name. For about this also the Lord said, ‘Do not give what is holy to the dogs.’”

    Thank you for your comments. God bless!

  • I think that one of the greatest things the present-day Church needs to do is invest the time in proper discipleship.  The context of the early Church was sort of a pagan society.  After an initial inquiry people would go through up to three years of spiritual formation before baptism!  Wow!

    I know many people think that to much education in the Church is a bad thing, however when many churches have no post-conversion educational follow-up in place, particularly for adults, we are missing a vital area that needs filling.

    The Church is almost “mother” to God’s “Father.”  The Church births, nutures, cares for, and even agonizes over her children.

  • ryc at LaleoCafe FatherRyan: Thank you so much for your insight. I believe that you are right on time! We DO need to “birth, nuture, care for, and even agonize over” our community of followers in our church community, and we do need a “have no post-conversion educational follow-up in place, particularly for adults”. God bless you Father!

  • I would humbly submit the following for consideration:

    As you so rightly said, “church” is so much more than bricks and mortar.
    There is very little in the New Testament about holding services the way that
    we do. Much of what is done derives from the Roman Forum rather than the
    Jesus Lifestyle.

    We have a few useful snippets, like – the disciples sang a song and then left.
    They were together glorifying God and singing praises. They paid attention
    to the Apostles’ teaching etc.

    Much of what we CAN know about the early church derives from the fact that
    we know they were almost all loyal Jewish people in the early church, and of
    these people’s customs and way of life there is in fact plenty that we
    already know. Unchanging customs and folk ways which had their origins
    in God’s commandments.

    We know that they had begun to meet on “Solomon’s Porch” outside the holy Temple
    fairly early on – when their ideas and activities were perhaps already beginning
    to encounter some opposition from mainstream Judaism. Make no mistake though, it
    was the “church” which chose to split off and adopt the ways of the world system,
    and the religions of the Greeks and Romans, and then later the Norsemen and the
    Druids. These introduced many pagan ideas, such as the substitution of the god
    “ISHTAR” (Easter) as the name of the Passover season / Resurrection season, long
    observed by Jews and the early followers of Yeshua of Nazareth (later known as
    Christians)… I don’t mean to belabor these points, but the “church” as we know
    it has a great deal of information missing about their own history, due to the
    “gentilization” of occurred in the 3rd and 4th centuries when the “church”
    consciously sought to eradicate her Jewish heritage. Nowadays, very few Christians
    even seem to realize that their Christ was in fact, an Orthodox Jew, and a 100%
    loyal one at that.

    OK, I didn’t mean to take this down a rabbit trail, but if anyone is interested,
    there are folks examining these things in great detail. Bottom line is that the
    Church cut herself off from many blessings by cutting ties to the Jews early on in
    Acts 15:28-30 etc.

    “It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond
    the following requirements: You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols,
    from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.
    You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.”

    http://www.tjcii.org/

    Click on Vision Statement – it is an interesting concept…

    I am not involved in this – I am not cmapaigning or persuading here. Just giving
    a little food for thought. May our lives and our buildings become a house of prayer
    for all nations including dear Israel, the Apple of God’s eye according to Zechariah.

    Wherever two or more uf us are gathered in His name – THERE He is in the midst
    of us!

    Peace to you all!

    Bry

  • ryc Bry: Thank you for commenting! I agree very much with what your thoughts. Especially, “Nowadays, very few Christians even seem to realize that their Christ was in fact, an Orthodox Jew, and a 100% loyal one at that. “

    God bless you my friend!

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